Mullah Omar goes to Karachi

Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Amir al Mumineen (“the commander of the faithful”) of the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban.

According to The Washington Times, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency has helped Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Amir al Mumineen (“the commander of the faithful”) for both the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, relocate to the southern port city of Karachi:

Two senior U.S. intelligence officials and one former senior CIA officer told The Washington Times that Mullah Omar traveled to Karachi last month after the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. He inaugurated a new senior leadership council in Karachi, a city that so far has escaped U.S. and Pakistani counterterrorism campaigns, the officials said.

The officials, two of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the topic, said Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency, the ISI, helped the Taliban leaders move from Quetta, where they were exposed to attacks by unmanned U.S. drones.

The development reinforces suspicions that the ISI, which helped create the Taliban in the 1990s to expand Pakistani influence in Afghanistan, is working against U.S. interests in Afghanistan as the Obama administration prepares to send more U.S. troops to fight there.

Bruce Riedel, a CIA veteran and analyst on al Qaeda and the Taliban, confirmed that Mullah Omar had been spotted in Karachi recently.

“Some sources claim the ISI decided to move him further from the battlefield to keep him safe” from U.S. drone attacks, said Mr. Riedel, who headed the Obama administration’s review of policy for Afghanistan and Pakistan last spring. “There are huge madrassas in Karachi where Mullah Omar could easily be kept.”

For those paying attention, this should come as little surprise. In late September, The Sunday Times reported that the ISI had begun moving Omar’s Quetta Shura to Karachi. It was only a matter of time before Omar followed. And given what we know about the ISI’s complicity with the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, the Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Hizb-i-Islami Gulbuddin, and a host of terror groups, your shock meter should be pegged to zero.

Bill Roggio is a Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and the Editor of FDD's Long War Journal.

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  • Cajun says:

    Incredible. We need to fix the target and ensure that an “urban” accident occurs. We accomplish two goals. First, we eliminate the leadership. Second, we send a message that the ISI can not protect its charges. We need say nothing. The action carries the message.

  • Spooky says:

    Not surprised of course, but I AM worried. Karachi isn’t just another city. Its their Mumbai or New York. Its also the scene of heavy ethnic tension. A bombing in Peshawar is normal, in Islamabad its expected, in Quetta no body cares, and in Lahore it is unfortunate, but that city is otherwise always in peace.
    But in Karachi if the nonsense going on in the NWFP arrives, it will light th powder keg.
    For those not in the know, Karachi is split about even between Pashtun refugees, Sindhis, and the Mohajir (people who either from or descended from those who fled to Pakistan after Partition). Terrorists strike, the middle-class, relatively westernized Mohajirs will go on the warpath with the Pashtuns while the Sindhis will go against both to rid the city of what they believe to be “foreigners’ even though most of them are Pakistani citizens.
    Anyone paying attention to the city knows what happens when just a single kid is killed if he happens to be affiliated with a local party. Multiply that reaction a thousand fold and we have an idea of what will happen.

  • Malang Jan says:

    Present US policies are steps in the right direction. Though very late, as we Pashtoon & Balooch mionorities in general & people of pakistan in particular have been suffering for too long at the hands of Pakistan terrorist army. The best thing US can do to Pakistan is to convert its army into police force & cut all sources trough which army will find strength(money or military hardware). The worst thing US can do to itself & people of Pakistan, India & Afghanistan is to surrender to Paki army double games. It is about time to declare Pakistan as Terrorist state. Otherwise ISI/MI(its allies pro army Taliban) will be blowing up markets in Peshawar & will crediting it to balck water through its ISI/MI controlled media. The British made this mistake in 1947, US strongly supported this epicenter of terrorism with dollar & guns for last sixty years. Now US has the chance to correct all those mistakes by dismentling it all togather in Azad Balochistan, Pashtoonistan, Sindhudesh & Punjabistan.

  • Karachi-ite says:

    Spooky, you sound legitimately scared. If you are then I recommend you wrap up commenting on Long War Journal and go find something that doesn’t raise your blood pressure so much.
    To add further to the knowledge of people on this blog, let me inform you that the worst time that Karachi went through were in the early to mid-1990’s. Amongst the westernized lot here in Karachi there is a great deal of resentment that the western press effectively ignored our plight. The near-civil war of the 1990’s was resolved by target assasinating the worst hitmen of all the utra-nationalist ethnic factions.
    My observation is that US political force is too thinly stretched to make a difference in Karachi. Considering the pressures the US is facing from the tribal Taliban faction, the contractor Taliban faction, the drug mafia Taliban, and various other purely Afghan based Taliban, the best course of action would be to serially take out one faction after another rather than trying to go after those factions that (Hizb-e-Islami, Mullah Umar) who are too well protected by Pakistani intelligence.
    The local Pashtun representation is characterised by the ANP. If the Mullah Umar Faction made any moves (beyond simply using the city as a sanctuary) there would be a traffic jam to eliminate their presence from the city.
    BTW – If you want more nightmares, I would like to inform Mr-Pakistan-Should-Be-Dismembered-Spooky, that Karachi is the city with the highest Pashtun population in THE WORLD. Neither can the Sindhis drive out the Muhajirs; nor can the Pashtuns be dislodged. My recommendation would be to take a chill pill, since from General Musharraf’s October 1999 takeover till 12 May 2007 my city benefitted from a sweet modus vivendi. 43 or so dead lawyers later, after the arrival of the civilian regime in February 2008, a new one has been hammered out.
    Mullah Umar and his intelligence handlers will keep a low profile if they know whats good for them.

  • Abheek says:

    Sensible thoughts Malang Jan .. Only people who have suffered becoz of endless scheming of ISI / Pak Army can realize the extend to which they can go to achieve their goals. I resepct a Balooch’s genuine demand for freedom from the atrocities of these people …ISI / Pak Army is a curse to this world … We Indians know this, the Bangladeshis realized this, Balooch and Afghans know this…
    Sooner the US and rest of the world recognizes this the better …

  • James says:

    This is immensely infuriating… I sure hope the Obama administration can implement a Pak strategy that puts an end to this double game being played.

  • GG says:

    As Karachi is a port city, is there any suspicion that they are being assembled there to await transport by ship to somewhere else?

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    I can obviously sense the immense trust deficit the ISI faces when it ‘feels’ the body language and the conversations/opinions they take from their counterparts or their superiors.
    This trust deficit perhaps translates into collecting/safeguarding entities which could fill that trust deficit and give a cushion for the ISI to lie on.
    Now, when immense ISI-bashing starts, there is more the reason the ISI would react and bring its cushion closer to itself. This is not an easy game, because in the process, the ISI might be harming national interests but they really feel the long-term interests lie in keeping this cushion.
    And as far as my information sources guide me, Mullah Omar is incorrectly being quoted of being present in Karachi. It is more of conjecture by foreign journalists of his presence in Karachi, since (they think) Karachi could be the only place (of hiding for Mullah Omar) where there is relative calm and the farthest (and the most populated) city from the north-west war frontier.
    His presence is verily confirmed in Kandahar, Afghanistan. The main base where he operates from and all of his command & control system is intact over there and untouched. The reason for his survival there is his public support base over there which he gained in his yesteryears.
    People may disagree with me on my theory. So the topic is open for discussion: Not everything can be believed that is in the papers.

  • Neo says:

    The Pakistani body politic is like a madman whose limbs flail about beating himself every which way. There seems to be an strong element of domestic trouble in moving Mullah Omar. It is already known that there is faction of pro-Taliban ISI that operate in Karachi, well out of control of the civilian government. The Pakistani army for their part would like a civilian government they can control and an ISI they can also control, regardless of the fact that pro-Taliban elements of the ISI and anti-Taliban civilians would just as well rid themselves of each other.
    Taking Mullah Omar to Karachi would be a deep embarrassment to the civilian government and high ranking officers in the Pakistani army. I don’t think thumbing their nose at the United States is the only purpose in this. Pro Taliban elements of the ISI are taking aim at their domestic opponents as well.
    It is my belief that the ranks within the Pakistani Army are still very divided. I suspect that regular troops selected to fight in Swat and South Waziristan come from units that have been fairly carefully vetted for loyalty. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if soldiers in other units have varying degrees of loyalty if asked to go up against the Taliban.
    A good question at this point would be, is the ISI functionally one organization, or has it effectively divided into internal fiefdoms controlled by political factions? Likewise political interests throughout Pakistan seem to be engaged in a proxy war against each other.

  • Bungo says:

    Very interesting but no more disturbing than everything else that goes on in Pakistan. If anything this only confirms that the main problem here is Pakistan (ISI/Army) Not Afghanistan. Like everyone else I am wanting to know how this can be sorted out and resolved. Can it only happen from within Pakistan or can outside forces force changes to occur by manipulation? I would love to see the CIA’s long view on this.

  • Jayant says:

    Entirely in character for pakistan/isi/pakistan army.
    Also entirely in character of the americans to keep going with it all saying…this is our best bet!
    The US policy will really get the right direction when they start putting ISI / army officers on their list for drone attacks. of course it is never going to happen but seriously isn’t the line between alqaeda, taliban, isi, pakistan army seriously thinning out over the years now? does anyone seriously believe this is every going to really change?
    ISI / Army needs these terrorists of various hues to stay relevant, increase their power and importance, get billions out of the americans… they have played this for decades now and they ain’t going to throw it all away for some silly american notion called GWOT.
    Honestly, it real sense it suits the americans too – they get a mission, objective and goals to be all passionate about.
    Americans need to play the big boy so they need bad boys, pakistan needs what the big boy has got so they create, sustain and breed the bad boys. everybody is happy!

  • Spooky says:

    Your namecalling is totally uncalled for.
    And as for your information on Pashtun dominance of the area, it is the MQM who has the most power in that city. And surrounding the city are the Sindhi peoples. So it all balances out, effectively, into thirds.
    I’d rather be paranoid and prepared than to take the city’s peace for granted. One only has to look to Lahore to see that.

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    Interestingly, the Obama administration has been holding the hand of the Pakistani civilian government to rein in the ISI, and separate its hold from the Pakistani Army (which is next to impossible). The first attempt was made to bring the ISI under the control of the interior ministry, but the decision was reversed (due to the strong reaction from the Army). Plus at the same time, President Zardari has been in close ‘secret’ contact with U.S. intelligence chiefs, which has already rung bells in the Army headquarters (since there is a dominant feeling of mistrust towards the corrupt civilian government plus its controversial ambassadorial appointment in Washington). Thirdly, there has been an impression doing rounds in Islamabad that the U.S. officials have asked the civilian government to remove the current head of ISI (which has yet again angered the establishment). So evaluating on the basis of this information it can be clearly seen how U.S. involvement or you may call it manipulation is harming a stable civilian government in Pakistan.
    So to sum it up all, the ISI problem will not go away through external force of the U.S. It is a complicated problem and the whole nexus belongs to clearing doubts in the minds of Pakistan Army officials (which am sure the U.S. military is making the effort to do so at all levels of contact) since U.S. demands and those pressing ones to shift Pakistan Army troops from the Indian border to the north-west frontier meets a lot of strict stares from the Pakistan Army since 70% of India’s Army deployments are along the Pakistani border at the moment. Therefore, this problem does NOT involve only Pak-Afghan, but India is also part of the equation, or you may call it the trust-deficit-equation.

  • T Ruth says:

    “Therefore, this problem does NOT involve only Pak-Afghan, but India is also part of the equation, or you may call it the trust-deficit-equation.”

  • T Ruth says:

    KARACHI-ITE, sounds like you are the one whose been furiously taking sugar-coated chill pills with your oh-so-sweet modus vivendi.
    Unfortunately, culture is rather like making yogurt. Once you put the culture in, the whole of the milk gets set. Karachi is part of Pakistan. Lets see how much longer you’ll protect it from souring.
    You might’ve done well to enhance your modus vivendi to a peace deal that ensured that your city will remain FREE of all ISI sponsored Taliban and affiliates. Still can, if you have any leadership.

  • T Ruth says:

    BILL, if the US intelligence knows that this guy is being moved to Karachi, then
    1 Isn’t the inference that they knew he was in Quetta?
    2 Why didn’t they get him there when he was more “exposed”?
    As i’ve said before there are only 2 ways to look at Pakistan:
    But frankly i just don’t get it that with 8 years of time invested, with all the money poured and pouring in, with tens of thousands in the frontline that the US has come up with so little of the top, and i mean TOP, leaders of either AQ or the Afghan Taliban.
    Pakistan is using and abusing the US by protecting these guys, tipping them off and sleeping with the US’s/West’s enemy. But i hope it isn’t US operational incompetence.
    The sad reality is the bottom-line is the same. and if it isn’t the latter factor, then one can only conclude that the US’s strategy on Pakistan is incompetent. Or is there one?
    “AfPak” has proved to be a meaningless utterance from DC as this story underlines–An Afghan in Pakistan, Quetta, Karachi…what next Rawalpindi with Islamabad next door handy for consultations?
    What does the US’s strategy direct as a response?
    There’s little point in sending more troops to Afghanistan if the playing pitch can be extended on the other side but is also reserved, by strategic depth rules, for the home team only. Level playing fields are passe. Today its virtually-stretchable playing fields.
    The US as Pakistan only has itself to blame.
    I also don’t get it as to what troop numbers have to do with special forces getting in on pakistan NOW!?

  • jayant says:

    A lot of emotions there in response to comments on ahamed tariq!
    That pet hobby horse as you call it is actually a congenital and terminal disease with the pakistani’s that is only going to go with the body, as in body bag.
    Again, i would not call it ignorance, it is denial, which makes them keep running for escapes and lies and keep wanting to believe in it.
    yes, on one level its good for us indians to sit around see pakistan commit a terrible suicide but then it is also a curse that we are living with. The disease doesn’t care, for it is its nature, its the body that suffers.
    Tariq bhai, if you can ever digest this, its the army and isi which has really ruined your country since its inception never ever allowing a strong,,robust civilian / political administration structure from coming up.
    It was okay with having a policy of state terrorism againt india using proxies, you could have survived it but then pakistan army/isi reallly made it all terminal by creating taliban, protecting alqaeda etc, etc.
    Sure you can blame india, america etc, etc till end of your little messy country for the simple reason that you guys are so pathetically helpless against the ways of your security establishment.
    As ruth says, at a certain levels we indians are ROFLing, though we are doing absolutely nothing else right in terms of giving them back nice and tight for all their bleeding of india thing.
    As for america, true they are having you every which way ruth, but then its a cursed situation offering no clean, neat solution.
    The only people who are playing fantastically well, tactically and strategically, are the alqaeda and taliban (exploiting indian, pakistani and american issues to the hilt) and with everybody else, the pakistani’s, the indians and the americans really messing it all up, my reading is everybody is going to be paying a terrible cost for a good another decade.
    the one great redemption in all this is we are still growing at 9 % (baring this year and maybe next) inspite of all this.
    what is your country/ISI/army growing at mr.tariq?

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    T Ruth,
    First of all, it is extremely indecent to at least type in CAPITAL letters when talking to someone online. Kindly be wary in this regard, since it is against the norms of decency.
    Secondly, India escaped this factual trust-deficit equation right before Obama announced his policy for the South Asian region (which originally included India to solve the Pak-Afghan problems to which it is connected to, no matter how much you deny or accept). India is a regional power, and if it does not remove 70% of its troops from Pakistani border, there are definitely going to be implications for the United States’s war on terror, if not for Pakistan, since Pakistan’s Army has always been trained to counter India’s troops. Only intense lobbying by the Indian government saved it from being included in the policy by the Obama administration (covered by the media for your information). So I believe you should back your analysis with facts rather than just accusing entities/people with factual backing to take responsibility for which they are not COMPLETELY responsible for.
    Moreover, Indian consulates in Kandahar and Jalalabad have no business on the Pak-Afghan border, and they are verily involved in activities which are equivalent to terrorist funding for groups to destroy/attack Pakistan Army through a proxy setting.
    Plus as far as your analysis on Karachi is concerned, I think your analysis will turn dry and sorry to say the MQM is well-entrenched in the Karachi’s system and its office-bearers down to the clerk-level have information of the presence of any potential terrorist activity, which is also the reason Karachi has been safer compared to other cities where the political party organization is different. So it would be easy to speak of failures/destruction/souring of cities, it is not that easy to do it to Pakistan, since it has been living in such conditions for the past 60 years, and it seems it will continue to do so with its resilience (which is so far the only quality it has got by far).
    As far as the United States’ war is concerned, they are definitely being fooled, and will continue to be fooled because they have become unpopular and will not be able to root out these terrorists for a very very long time. So they got to be here for a very long time to save themselves from another 9/11.

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    I think first of all it is pertinent to mention that Pakistan is more strategically placed (and is facing more trouble) in the modern times than India, and it is facing intensive attention of Western powers as well as powers who have stakes in Afghanistan (specially India injecting billions to build Afghanistan’s infrastructure to gain trust of the Afghan people). So had it been complete ignorance or denial, i would say its more of misinformed Indians, who do not understand the gravity of the situation. I fail to understand that people like you who favor India’s position of not spewing trouble in Pakistan are terribly misinformed by their media.
    And Jayant, I would not disagree over the ruin Pakistan has been through just only because of Army and ISI, BUT there are other reasons too. United States’ has promoted dictators in this part of the country not in the past 10 years but even before that. Plus the civilian governors have not been capable to run governments, which positively expected to deliver if elections are held every 5 years. Moreover, Indians DO need to care of what happens to Pakistan, because if Pakistan goes down, then India goes down too, because these militants Pakistan is facing have a harder opposition towards India than to Pakistan. While history is a testament to all Afghan conquerors coming to Delhi, there is more the reason for the Indians NOT to sit back and laugh at Pakistan’s destruction (which still to the dismay of anti-Pakistan powers, has a running economy, producing bumper crops).
    As far as creating the Taliban is concerned, that is a totally different story, more factors are related to securing national interests by the ISI (and so they do have the right to do so), which were secured to a large extent. Links with Taliban are quite deep, and my analysis gives me the space to say that once the U.S.A. leaves Afghanistan, things will become calmer for Pakistan (as you call it the suicide of countries).
    And as far as the economic growth of Pakistan is concerned, Pakistan is in a state of war, and if you could happily agree, Pakistan is NOT being completely compensated for the billions of dollars of losses Pakistan is posting by conducting a war in the Tribal Areas. And by the way, for your kind information, Pakistan ‘was’ growing at 8% until 2008, so writing off Pakistan in economic terms will be a negation of fact and reality towards its potential in achieving economic superiority or levelling with India (if this frivolous thing is what this debate had to come to).

  • Jayant says:

    A newly born country needed time and space to build its political and state institutions. If it had teething troubles with politicians/political parties not performing that well still needed time to mature out and
    stabilize themselves to come to a robust political situation. Pakistan army denied this again and again. This to my mind was one of the foundational issues of pakistan ending up where it is. (
    among other things)
    Yes, americans have played as destructive a part by proping up / supporting and sustaining dictators just because it suited them.
    But still, the place the whole things started really going downhill was with american war on soviets in afganistan. My point simply is this: Gen.Zia could have and should have taken the stand
    that Pakistan wants to have nothing to do with the cold war games and focussed inwards on stabilizing and growing itself. A fatal directional decision for the country here.
    Of course, Gen.Zia gunning for ISLAM as the unifying factor for a nation, islamisising the army command and structure etc were some more terrible nails in the future coffin of the nation.
    Why can’t the muslims come to accept one simple thing – the khilafa does not belong to these times, the world political system runs on a notion called Nation State and umma does not belong
    to this. You are an pakistani or american first and a muslim and christian and hindu later. To try and turn this around on its head is again to my mind a fundamental error that the muslim
    community is making and the terror ideology is utilizing to the hilt.
    Religion is absolutely a great thing, as long as it is personal, and as long as it guides the individual in a personal enhancement, as long as it makes a better human being out of him/her and maybe even guide his/her life. Allah must be very happy with such a person. But to make religion the basis for a nationhood, a substitute for national identity, a political institution out of it, least of it as the powering force behind an international fight for power and influence, is absurdity of the most absurd kind. Religion was never built for it and it would always fail what it never can be.
    But somehow muslim can’t understand this basic principle. And of course if umma is everything why don’t you first unit all muslim countries first before you take on the rest of the world. Why
    ride this rough shod of muslim super power nonsense using muslim religious feelings just because you have a political problem with the west having gone so damn powerful. The entire
    muslim/terror ideology fight is fight for political power and influence why drag allah or religion into it.
    I have this joke: one of the these days, very soon, Allah is going to appear, only to announce : I don’t subscribe to this religion any more, I WANT OUT!!
    The fundamental points: Pakistan should have focussed on getting its stablized, putting itself on growth and development path and should have had the guts to stand out of american games
    and interest in afganistan. Also, at least post soviet withdrawal, it should have had wisdom to stay out of afganistan, found its way to clear the mujaheeding infrastructure out of its soil and
    turned even more vigorously to nation building. But instead this is what it did (regardless of all its talk of ‘american abandonment’) : hurray! Great! Now we have these great mujaheeding
    infrastructure and we are going to snatch kashmir, inflict a 1000 wounds on india for the next 1000 years. And its blowing back now! Good Luck!. No the army and isi did not secure the
    national interest so very well after all.
    Afganistan hasn’t given you guys any strategic depth, its just ruining you. Just as kashmir, islam, america, parity with india etc, etc have ruined pakistan body and soul. I find it extraordinarily
    stupid of pakistan that it has focussed on all these issues to run itself in ruins instead of being self focussed and growing and making a strong, stable and prosperous country with a strong
    identity and self confidence.
    And by the way, how come pakistan has never tried to define itself and its goal as a country per se without it beeing vis-a-vis india( the parity nonsense that you have destroyed yourself with).
    Malaysia never tried for parity with japan or china, we have never tried for parity with china, if you are self confident, you can be comfortable and respected being yourself without some
    absurdity of parity.
    Sure pakistan going down the drain would be a huge headache, but then it already has been enough of a headache for decades now that we are okay with it. We can deal with some more of it.
    No, we indians in general don’t really want pakistan to go down the drain if it had been a stable, sane and wise country. no we are not afraid you are going to some day snatch kashmir from us,
    or level with us or dominate us. that have never been an insecurity of india (neither is your nuclear weapons), but a rabid, fundamentalist, stupid and hostile pakistan that it has consistently
    shown itself to be over six decades now, we are more than glad to see it go to destruction. No you won’t understand this in its entireity ever.
    yeah, of course, afganistan turned calmer after the americans went away and before they returned, and isi was happy hosting alqaeda, creating, building and growing the taliban and breeding
    LET/HUJI/JEM etc and am sure it will return back to that oasis of divine peace and should I say islamic progress once the american leave again. LMAO.

  • Xavier says:

    Ahmad Tariq,
    You do have nice points to make.
    You can not really complain about US meddling in Pak affairs for decades since much of Pak economy was based on foreign aid/support (say $$$$).
    When I talk to Indians here in US their version of history matched very well with ours. That is not what happens with Pakistanis (Zia brainwashing).
    Neither is there any comparison in terms of scientific/mathematical learning of people of these two countries. Indians, I can say are far ahead in math/science skills, on par with Chinese.
    In the modern times you can hardly build an economy with technological(read math/science) ignorance of population. Neither does Pak have recognizable civil or educational institutions. Here in Silicon Valley, many start ups are by IITans, these IITians are well known in US academic circles.
    Finally, Talibanning everything mean less economic activity. Remember that if Taliban increases influence in Pak many activities will be banned, grinding the economy to a halt.
    You may see bright future with Taliban, but I don’t.
    This is the main reason so many oil rich ($$ rich) countries in the middle east do not have functioning(self-sustaining in case oil runs out) economies. Actually many smaller and oil-less countries have larger economies.
    The same could be in store for Pakistan if Islamic influences rise. And to add to the injury, Pakistan does not have any oil.
    The country is nearly bankrupt. Recently, when Pak was about to default on its payments, US aid came to rescue. When Zardari went begging in Saudi and China he was turned down by both “allies”. This could be the affect of Taliban war, but that’s what you get when sleeping with such people.
    Actually if you read Ahmed Rashid it will be clear that even before 9/11 Mullah Omar stopped taking orders from ISI. They started their own politics.

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    I have no idea why the Indians suffer from a superiority complex of being far more superior in maths/sciences skills than others. I have no interest in your extremely pro-India talk. But to just to boast for my own country on the matter (laughable and childish too), Pakistan has great researchers in MIT and science/mathematical institutions around the world. In fact our only Nobel laureate has a Theoretical Physics Center of his own name set up in Italy and Pakistanis regularly go there for their research. So am actually glad these are surprises for you but I thought Indians were better in everything?
    You may talk of IITians, etc, but the mere fact is your country has not been able to eliminate/minimize poverty in absolute terms, it stands at 400 million. While Pakistan is in a better situation, and its judicial situation is already transformed with a vibrant media. Political situation is getting better, and it will take time for it to flourish.
    And am sorry to say but your mere bias towards Pakistani people openly supporting Taliban is a mere hogwash. Majority rejects them, even if they follow their religion.
    And as far as bankruptcy is concerned, I once again reiterate the country is at war, and you expect the country to be flush with cash flows to repay debts when most payments are going into the War? Give it a thought dear, I thought Indians were sharper in technology/economics/science/math?

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    Well, Jayant, I think there is no benefit for me to talk to you in this pseudo-academic debate of yours which includes ridiculing other’s religions. And well India has always proved (see Gujrat massacre) to what good extent it is secular in nature, so I need not comment on anything else as your case has no ground for debate, plus I don’t think your points have any weight.

  • Ahmad Tariq says:

    Well, Jayant, I think there is no benefit for me to talk to you in this pseudo-academic debate of yours which includes ridiculing other’s religions. And well India has always proved (see Gujrat massacre) to what good extent it is secular in nature, so I need not comment on anything else as your case has no ground for debate, plus I don’t think your points have any weight.
    Whereas ISI is concerned, it will always defend Pakistan’s national interests and it will continue to do so no matter what India does. Pakistan is a nation by any definition and it will give political support to Kashmiris whom your Indian police/military mutilate/kill unreasonably everyday.

  • Xavier says:

    Ahmad Tariq,
    I am just saying what I saw about Indians. I have never been to India. Since I am in education (industry) I come across people of different countries.
    The sole Pakistani Nobel winner was declared a non-muslim by Zia admin.
    Now remember the context under which I brought up education of Indians. I said that you need technologically well educated citizens to build an economy, responding to your 8% growth Pak was achieving till 2008. You can have growth but if you import(goods) due to local peoples’ technological ignorance then your growing economy and/or population can become a liability (eg: US liability > 13 trillion and growing).
    Remember that here in US the problem of late is the lack of production(manufacturing) and loss of technological edge. We are losing many bright Chinese and Indians to their respective countries as they are preferring their home countries now.
    US does not have many options now. Either it has to improve standards at home or attract bright people from around the world to maintain technological edge.
    You can apply the same rules to Pak economy. If it does not stop these madrassas then there will be no technological base to build the economy on. The population growth can become liability in this increasingly competitive world.
    Just some analysis/advice.
    To my knowledge there are no(may be rarely) religious based curriculum (to the exclusion og math/sciences) in any countries but Muslim countries. Eg. Madrassa produce significant number of adults compared to secular educated citizens in Pak.
    This is why growing population in these countries is becoming a liability.
    These are ground realities, it has nothing to do with whether Indians/Chinese/US/Israelis are superior. The analysis, however may explain US technological superiority, it may also explain recent steps into outer space by Chinese/Indians.

  • Xavier says:

    Ahmad Tariq,
    Whether a country is secular is not is decided based on its constitution, not by the acts of its people.
    For example after 9/11 there were many muslims/sikhs attacked in US. THat does not make US any less secular.
    US constitution does not prefer one religion to other. I guess its the same case with Indian/Chinese constitutions, though Chinese may favor communism.
    Pakistan on the other hand has a constitution (1956 const) which clearly bars any non-muslim from becoming president.
    At the above wiki article see why your constitution is not secular.
    Also see this
    According to Diyyat laws a muslim man is worth 8 times a Christian woman and twice a muslim woman. This shows both gender inequality and religious discrimination (some Pakistanis call this racism, when its against them)
    Could you show me any part of US constitution that shows such blatant discrimination. Better yet, show the constitution of any non-Muslim country which contains such horrible discrimination.

  • Xavier says:

    Ahmad Tariq,
    I guess you do not understand what secularism means.
    Pakistan would be considered secular despite its army killing 3 million non-Muslims in 1971, if its constitution is against such atrocities/discrimination.
    Remember that after WWII, 1971 was the biggest genocide, similar to Nazi (since both were state sponsored). These are confirmed by revelations from Nixon admin’s tapes recently declassified.
    So despite such large scale violence on the basis of religion, Pakistan would still be considered secular if its constitution does not have religious discrimination.
    Secularism is a property of the law of the land, not a property of masses/people.
    People are not perfect, but if they have reasonably well discrimination-free constitution as guiding principle then they may get closer to perfection. If the beacon itself is tainted there is no hope.

  • T Ruth says:

    Ahmed Tariq:
    “So they (the US) got to be here for a very long time to save themselves from another 9/11.”
    Of course they do, because Pak is A LIE not an ALLY. Pak is part of the problem and not helpful, irrresponsive, irresponsible and as this story asserts complicit. The simple truth is that you harbor barbarians (this story is on a chief barbarian, Mullah Omar)and you/isi provide them with them with protection.
    So sorry, Mr Netiquette, to bring you back to the story we are discussing here.
    As the saying goes “If you lie down with dogs, you will get up with fleas.”
    Pak has amply proved itself to be an irresponsible state within the global family of nations. The rest of the world, including India and China, is not going to allow you to hold up the progress of the world in this fast-moving 21C.
    If it means your tenuous nation breaking apart, so be it. It is already cracking up and the reverberation of this crackling can be heard around the world. Many in Pakistan are also waking up (and dying, being maimed) with these sicko’s alarms. But then there are many like you who sanctify the ISI and believe that they are your savior. Because of your deep rooted conditioning you are insecure, you live in fear of india and hence your obsession.
    Oh well, what can one say? Carry on….for you don’t seem to be as serious about your nation as you are keen on the ISI. Maybe its time for the ISI to stage a coup, run your country (into the ground) and “secure (your)national interests” whatever they are. LOL and more ROFL…
    By the way, i am not indian nor pakistani nor american or british, for that matter patriotic of any nation. Nor muslim, hindu, christian, for that matter, any organised religion whatsoever. BUT i have spent many years in the sub-continent and know the culture and psyche (in variety) intimately.
    If the ISI does manage to run your country into the ground, with your support of righteousness, i will be the first one wearing a t-shirt with the epitaph “I LOVE ISI”.
    Maybe Malang Jan–see his commendable comment above–will too! Wonder where his mistrust of you, a fellow citizen of yours fits into your “trust-deficit-equation” theories?
    Ah well, if PEACE comes from the PIECES of pakistan……..SO BE IT!
    Even more than my friend Spooky (also obviously VERY familiar with your part of the world), Malang Jan is very well prepared: “Azad Balochistan, Pashtoonistan, Sindhudesh & Punjabistan.”
    But i know you’re thinking what about Kashmir 😉


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