No new offensives against the Taliban this year: Pakistani Army

The Pakistani military said today it would not conduct any new offensive operations against the Taliban in the northwest this year, and claimed its forces are “overstretched” in the fights in Swat and South Waziristan. The news breaks as the military agreed to a peace agreement with the Mehsud tribe in South Waziristan.

The statements, made by Major General Athar Abbas, the top spokesman for the Pakistani military, come as the US is urging the South Asian nation to step up pressure against the Haqqani Network and allied Taliban groups in North Waziristan.

“We are not going to conduct any major new operations against the militants over the next 12 months,” Abbas told the BBC.

“The Pakistan army is overstretched and it is not in a position to open any new fronts,” Abbas continued. “Obviously, we will continue our present operations in Waziristan and Swat.”

The Pakistani Army’s announcement is sure to anger the United States, which has been lobbying the Pakistani government and its military to expand their operations and target Taliban groups outside the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan, such as the Haqqani Network. US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates is currently in Pakistan seeking to convince government officials to exert more pressure against the Haqqani Network.

But powerful elements within Pakistan’s military and intelligence services still view the Haqqani family and groups led by Hafiz Gul Bahadar in North Waziristan and Mullah Nazir in South Waziristan as ‘good Taliban,’ as these groups do not overtly threaten the Pakistani state. The Haqqanis, Bahadar, and Nazir do not advocate attacks against the Pakistani military and government. Yet these same Taliban groups host al Qaeda and other South and Central Asian jihadist outfits who conduct attacks in Pakistan and Afghanistan as well as against targets in the West.

During his recent visit to India, Secretary Gates explained the danger of Pakistan’s policy of selectively targeting certain Taliban groups while excluding others.

“It’s dangerous to single out any one of these groups and say if we could beat that group that will solve the problem,” Gates said, according to The Washington Post. “Because they are, in effect, a syndicate of terrorist operators.”

Gates also said that the groups pool their resources and talent under the aegis of al Qaeda and are “orchestrating” terror attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.

These terror groups have sought shelter with the Taliban in Pakistan’s lawless northwest, where the Taliban are conducting a deadly insurgency.

The Taliban still control vast tracts of Pakistan’s tribal areas and regions in the Northwest Frontier Province, despite the Pakistani military operations in Swat and South Waziristan. While the military has had success in restoring a semblance of order in Swat, the operation in South Waziristan has targeted only the Mehsud tribal areas, leaving Mullah Nazir’s forces intact in the Wazir tribal areas to the West.

In Mohmand and Bajaur, the military declared victory in March 2009, but the Taliban were never driven from their strongholds. Arakzai, Khyber, and Kurram remain Taliban bastions despite limited operations by the paramilitary Frontier Corps backed by airstrikes. Regions in the settled districts of Bannu, Hangu, Tank, Dera Ismail Khan, Karak, Lakki Marwat, and Kohat are under Taliban control [see LWJ report and map, “Map of Taliban control in Pakistan’s northwest – October 2009”].

The Pakistani government has also signaled it is seeking to disengage from the fighting in South Waziristan. Yesterday, the Press Trust of India and Daily Times reported that the Mehsud tribes agreed to demands by the government to turn in Hakeemullah Mehsud and 377 other wanted Taliban leaders and fighters. The tribes also agreed to expel “foreigners” (a reference to al Qaeda), stop carrying heavy weapons, and obey the writ of the government.

While on the surface this agreement with the Mehsud tribe will be viewed as a success, the Pakistani government has come to numerous agreements such as this one with the tribes and even the Taliban in the past. These agreements have only led to the strengthening of the Taliban. The military has traditionally withdrawn from areas and ended operations after cutting such deals with the tribes.

Past peace agreements in North and South Waziristan, Bajaur, Swat, Mohmand, Khyber, Bannu, Tank, Kohat, and elsewhere have called for the very same things now being demanded of the Mehsuds in South Waziristan. In every case, the tribes have failed to abide by the agreements.

A very similar demand was made to the tribes in Bajaur last March. The tribes were to turn over Faqir Mohammed, the leader of the Bajaur Taliban and the deputy leader of the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan, and other Taliban leaders. But Faqir is still free and leading attacks in Bajaur. He was even spotted at an official dinner in Swat after the signing of the Malakand Accord in February 2009. Several months later, Faqir temporarily assumed control over the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan until they selected a new leader, Hakeemullah Mehsud, following the death of Baitullah Mehsud in a US airstrike in South Waziristan in early August 2009.

Bill Roggio is a Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and the Editor of FDD's Long War Journal.

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86 Comments

  • T Ruth says:

    Good news because it’ll hopefully FORCE the US to fundamentally change its strategy for the better. For once Pak is being straightforward and not duplictious.
    It was all wishful thinking that a lie would suddenly turn into a (genuine) ally. Sorry but Pakistan has been gaming the system for too darned long and still playing games of brinkmanship. Also the Pak army/ISI combine has been so part of the problem, I could never trust and envision a paradigm where they would become part of the solution. It just ain’t gonna happen.
    The US should stop playing this marathon game of chess with Pakistan which has become a side-show.
    Play dominos instead and pull the plug on Baluchistan.

  • Malik says:

    oopps! what – Pakistan is no more in this Global war on terror – is Pakistan is going to leave US with the smile as everyone else did?

  • gfgwgc says:

    One point five billion a year doesn’t go as far as it used too…

  • Aryan says:

    So does that mean that if USA is angry at Pakistan, it will not intefere if India invades Pakistan. Well. Too bad the Indians are not interested.

  • Raven says:

    Malik–
    Pakistan leaving this Global war on terror is a good thing. Now Global terror can grow and prosper in Pakistan and the war will still be our war. Or may be if we give more money, drone technology, Pak army will be back?

  • Spooky says:

    The attack on the CIA in the border region must have solidified their deluded mantra of everything being a CIA-Mossad-RAW conspiracy.
    Also, in the last two weeks, the Indians and the Pakistanis have been talking tough, coupled with shooting incidents across not just the LOC, but the accepted International Border between the two, in places like Wagah.
    I smell another Kargil on the horizon. And whenever there is a war, the Pakistan government always (with the exception of the 1948 war) collapses.
    It makes me wonder why the attempt by their respective media houses for peace isn’t being paid attention to…

  • Al says:

    That is because it is winter now?

  • Bungo says:

    WoW! If it takes Pakistan 6 months to a year to mount a military operation against a group of criminals and psycopaths in their own country because they’re “over-stretched” I’d hate to see what would happen if they were ever invaded by a real 21st century military power. They’d probably wind up nuking themselves.

  • KaneKaizer says:

    Well Pakistan, don’t complain about the CIA attacking Taliban and Al Qaeda targets in North Waziristan when you won’t do anything about it.

  • natej740 says:

    What are the chances of the 30,000 troops going into Pakistan and kicking some Taliban butt?? Obama said he would invade Pakistan if needed when he was campaining for president. I think that is the only option left hit them where it hurts. Most of our troops are already in S. Afghanistan already. Our real ememy is just across the border go get them because Pakistan sure as **** isnt!!!!

  • m3fd2002 says:

    Maybe its a head fake. No telegraphing a winter assault on the haqqani’s. Meanwhile, predatores/reapers keep hitting the Command/Control of the taliban. These assets can be very effective in harsh winter environments.

  • Malik says:

    Pakistan army has done the righteous thing as any intelligent person should do.
    Pakistan has suffered a lot by being in this war – since the reactions in the form of suicide bombing was just faced by Pakistan – Nato still has to share the part of everything
    If anyone think to prolonge the already lost war with the intention to destroy than to build than he is just not doing the wrong thing he is doing a stupid thing also – the end result would not be just Pakistan will suffer but everyone will suffer – if anyone knows that part of the world he will just say this line – DO NOT DO THIS, YOU ARE DOING A CRIME TO HUMANITY
    If it is about security of people than these actions will not provide them with security.
    If there is some other smart intentions like controlling oil flow, taking care of China, keeping the dominance than through talking with eachother and working together should be the way – humans should be better than animals – killing one part of the world to let live other is no solution

  • Malik says:

    regarding invading Pakistan – you can not win from bunch of talibans in one big afghanistan and you think you can attack Pakistan – come on –

  • Malik says:

    Pakistan should do one more thing remain off this policy of aggression is to stop providing the routes for supplies.
    It is important since it embarc anger in Pakistan – Pakistan must now say sorry to US

  • steve m says:

    malik, in all three of your comments you make no mention of aq or the taliban. i would be interested in your thoughts regarding them? as far as your logic on the us invading pakistan, apparently pak can not even handle the taliban in their own country after the us ran them from afghanistan in a matter of weeks. also you might want to take iraq into consideration, i beleive their armed forces were as strong if not more so than pakistan’s. as soon as we neutered pak army (no more than a few weeks) there would be a plethora of politicians looking to form a new government. there is no future in supporting terrorism! i really look forward to hearing your response.

  • Minnor says:

    Nobody can tell future, even if pak army says no ops this year, this stand may change in 2 months..
    Pak seems to have been able to hold Swat, lower Dir and Bajaur, and drones are currently employed only over N.Waziristan. Let us wait for drone campaign output for 2 months before fresh invasions, who knows we maybe able to send the deputy to Baitullah’s place.

  • MalangJan says:

    Mulla Salam Zaeef(former Taliban embasador to Pakistan in his recently released book “My life with Taliban”), has exposed the true face of ISI. Afghan Taliban have enough of ISI. But they don’t have a choice. Their families are in Pakistan & they use Pakistani Passport to travel overseas. So in general Pakistan Military establishment is loosing its clout with Taliban. Though ISI can hire a few mullas & send them to Afghanistan to bomb market places or bridges but nothing more. A sucesful strategy by world comunity in London conference will make Pakistan almost redundant. This Mulla Zaeef has raised very valid points in this book. He has exposed the true face of ISI. Worth reading. You can read the review at the following link.
    //e-ariana.com/ariana/eariana.nsf/allDocs/6FFE73D3433728DA872576B2005B8990?OpenDocument

  • Neo says:

    Pakistan makes more deals with the devil than Faust. Faust got a much better deal too. So far Pakistan hasn’t gotten a thing, unless, of course, you count contempt something tangible. Plenty of that!
    So the Pakistani government tries the carrot and stick approach this time around. Any bets on how much cooperation the Pakistani government gets this time around. Based on the past, I would say  

  • Cordell says:

    Regarding Pakistan’s decision to refrain from any new offensive against the Taliban, the handwriting was already on the wall when the Justice Ministry filed corruption charges against President Zardari. Apparently, he was the only one among Pakistan’s current leaders seriously interested in defeating the Taliban and AQ. As long as Zardari is effectively neutered, so too will be Pakistan’s military. If he ever regains command of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, a symbol of his commander in chief status, watch for a new anti-Taliban offensive to begin.
    Thankfully, the US is ramping up production of UAVs as well as the pilots and infrastructure to fly them. (Last year, the US Air Force trained more UAV pilots than regular, in-cockpit pilots.) One may soon expect UAV missile strikes in Pakistan almost daily.
    Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal reported today that AQ and allied groups had renewed efforts to foment war between Pakistan and India. Behind the scenes, US diplomats are trying to craft a general understanding between the two countries that if India is hit by new terror attacks, it can retaliate against the terrorists on Pakistani soil without further inflaming their relationship and provoking a Pakistani response.

  • Render says:

    Malik – “Pakistan army has done the righteous thing as any intelligent person should do.”

  • Abheek says:

    Read between the lines folks – What it really means is they want to focus their energies on India through their comrades-in-jihad – the LeTs, Hujis, etc.

  • Victor says:

    Let me get this straight: a ‘nation’ (and I use the term in its loosest sense) that has an army strength of OVER A MILLION is over-stretched when it sends all of 30,000 ‘soldiers’ to ‘fight’ the Taliban? Are you effin’ kidding me? Why do the Pakistanis insist on devoting the bulk of the Army strength to defending against an attack from India that has never and will never happen? The last time I checked, EVERY Indo-Pakistani war has been instigated by PAKISTAN (and Pakistan has come out the loser EVERY time, I might add). Its past time for the U.S. to end this kabuki dance with Pakistan and give them something to REALLY worry about.

  • malik says:

    @ Steve
    (Alloting name is not the right, playing games and think that other person is stupid is not the right thing)
    Rather than just demonizing the world Taliban – we should be clear who is the agressor and who is the sufferer
    If you just give a thinking – America has invaded Afghanistan, they are there on someone else land – Taliban as people of their land are fighting for their land which make their cause just and makes American foreign occupier – under no justice you can be on someone else land.
    Before America started with this compaign of terror, the Taliban government ask for the proof against Osama bin Laden – and as far I think still there is no valid proof or some court judgment that it was done by Osama
    When Pakistan say India is supporting terrorist than Halbrooke ask for proof – come on man if you are wrong say that you are wrong do not hide behind morality
    Its a game of Power and world has seen the show of Power in Iraq – but let me tell you one thing Pakistan is not a land of Troy – you mess with us and you will see the end of the world – hopefully you get my point.
    If you are counting on politicans – do you think 300 person can stand against will of 17 million people among which 7-8 million is in the age of 20-30 and one thing you must remember they luv their country – you can calculate the rest
    Or I should put it this way Taliban is just small reflection you still have to see the actual story

  • Xavier says:

    I guess Malik actually reveals the position of military establishment of Pakistan.
    Actually bin Laden’s biography(in some sense) clearly states that he was responsible for 9/11. Actually his idea was to provoke US by 9/11 so that US can enter Afghanistan.
    He hoped that muslims from around the world will show up in Afg to fight US just like they did in case of USSR.
    He was disappointed when that did not happen and Muslims shied away from fighting the US. His already takfir position has strengthened due to this and started condoning suicide bombings against Muslims as well, since they were not devout enough to fight the US.
    Mohammad(Islam) allowed capital punishment for three reasons
    1. Adultery
    2. Murder
    3. Turning away from Islam
    And killing women/children in war is proscribed. So is suicide bombing.
    Takfiris (championed by Zawahiri in AQ) justified these actions (which are against Islam) by saying that the final goal is to spread Islam so its ok, since they don’t have a match for US technology.
    And Osama’s prime grudge against US is till US military presence in Saudi A(see his demands), which is quite frivolous, more so because US military is there on Saudi King’s request.
    Anyway here is one solution to counter the Pakistani military: (this is not Islam vs US problem, this is Pakistan vs US problem)
    Break up Balochistan. Ask Balochis to declare independence and recognize their govt immediately. This way the oil/gas looted from Balochistan can be used for local development rather than Pak military.
    Sindh will break away naturally as pointed by Zardari recently.

  • Xavier says:

    Malik:
    I want to know your opinion on bin Laden’s declaration of war on US. It happened in 1996, the video recording of which was televised back then.
    It was from Afg he declared the war. At that point US ignored the threat as they were focusing on the aftermath of USSR collapse, like loose nukes etc.
    When USSR withdrew from Afg Pak used the fighters to fight in Kashmir, Afg. Some of them went to Chechenya to fight the Russians.
    So we do have quite clear idea of history, how Pakistan wanted to be center of Islam and its use of the Afg coldwar veterans to achieve this goal.
    About Indian involvement in Pak: I think it may be true in Balochistan but nonsense in case of TTP. ISI recently displayed (pics available in Pak media as well as LWJ) weapons from Taliban(TTP) allegedly supplied by India. the problem was that they weapons clearly has Chinese characters and 82 mm shells which India does not produce.
    TTP is entirely side effect of Pakistan creation (Afg taliban), but not mature enough to accept responsibility.
    BTW, if Afghan version of Islam as practised in Afg from 1996-2000 is so good that Pakistan wants to support Afg Taliban, why not impose the same in Pakistan, which is what TTp is fighting for.
    Impose Sharia (Burqas, beard, mandatory prayers, whippings, beheading and all that good stuff) in entire Pakistan and TTP will shut up.
    Don’t limit Sharia to Swat. TTP wants to fight until it is imposed on entire Pakistan.

  • Ali says:

    its a ploy to get more dollars and equipment out of US. there is already talk of giving 12 drones to paks

  • BobK says:

    Malik says- “Before America started with this compaign of terror, the Taliban government ask for the proof against Osama bin Laden – and as far I think still there is no valid proof or some court judgment that it was done by Osama”
    Do you mean OBL stating on video for the world to see that he and his group did it is NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE for you. If that is not then NOTHING will be and further discussion with you is a waste of time
    Malik says- “Its a game of Power and world has seen the show of Power in Iraq – but let me tell you one thing Pakistan is not a land of Troy – you mess with us and you will see the end of the world – hopefully you get my point.”
    YEA we GET your POINT AQ and Pak friends have made it clear already, They are willing to end the world to accomplish the goal of Islamic domination of the WORLD–The hell with what happens to get there
    Simply put Malik, WE DONT WANT TO PLAY that game, we like the world the way it is for the most part, folks getting along as a group of nations doing business and caring for thier peoples. THE WHOLE WORLD does this now except a couple of nations/tribes/mobs, mostly in your neighborhood, that just want only to ruin things for POWER.
    Please look in the mirror sir!
    Pak and Afgan have NOTHING we need or want except people wanting to live without fear that someone is going to blow them up at the market for some stupid reason claiming he is protecting them from an occupation. yea right.
    Malik, my son is sitting a few stones throws from your border as we speak. he and his buds have not yet to begun to really do any serious campaigns, dont tempt them you may get more than you ask!
    Kyber to Peshawar would be done before you new it started.
    if we are your main problem why do AQ and the taliban keep BLOWING up your citizens? Really dont get it at all how that works logically.

  • T Ruth says:

    MR MALIK: “DO NOT DO THIS, YOU ARE DOING A CRIME TO HUMANITY”
    Is this a new form of Pakistani pacifism you represent? Have you just flown in from Cuckooland to proclaim this? LAUGHABLE! You are past masters at crime, including to your own people.
    I am not American but when you say “Pakistan must now say sorry to US”, i will tell you no, Pakistan must say sorry to the civilised world for its role in 9/11 and screwing up a perfectly good start to this new millenium. What do you know about humanity, progress, industriousness, co-existence, peace? Pakistan is an economic parasite though fortunately insignificant–McDonalds just made almost as much profit in a single quarter as is thrown at you by Kerry-Lugar in a year. But because of your crooked culture even that is not seen by your people–it lines the pockets of your non-leaders including your trouble-making army. And you talk about righteousness and intelligence? Rich words! But empty!!
    And about your bravado of the Pak Army–have that collective of plodders ever won anything in their life other than the disdain of the thinking, intelligent Pakistani–whether he or she is a villager living in Swat or FATA or Baluchistan or anywhere or even in a city, fed up of all the violence, disorder and of being drip-fed lies of Blackwater/mossad/raw involvement.

  • malik says:

    @ Render
    You know about this war tell me one thing isnt it is said again and again that “we are loosing in Afghanistan”
    Just think if you are loosing from the bunch of bees and you further wants to aggrevate them by following “Hit and run” strategy – will that control the sitution
    30000 more troops will do what? they will kill more Taliban and than – they will turn against more voilently
    Isn’t its better to try find good in them, talk and solve the problem – finish all this – crying and threatened by something which has not happened will not solve anything – to negotite you know the way Saudi Arabia
    Russia had 5 lac army in Afghanistan and they fought for ten years and they lost – an addition of 30000 troops will not save the world
    They can only do one thing further aggrevate the sitution – they obviously will not defeat Taliban – do not tell me you think they can
    And calculations says if the sitution will be more detoriated there will be more reactions – and increasing the amount of reactions will and can never give security to people at large
    If its about making life of Pakistanis and people of the region miserable as I can see from the posts above than it would be your call – you might have the capability to start this war we have the capability to finish this war.
    Your way of thinking and your actions are further strengthening bonds between the aggressors and neutrals of this part of the world – hell its all stupidty even if its about self interest even of some small minority for whom killing humans is just a game

  • T Ruth says:

    Malik:
    ” you mess with us and you will see the end of the world – hopefully you get my point.
    If you are counting on politicans – do you think 300 person can stand against will of 17 million people among which 7-8 million is in the age of 20-30 and one thing you must remember they luv their country – you can calculate the rest”
    Oh we get your point! And by dropping some critical zeros in your numbers above, one hopes you don’t wipe out 90% of your population. Triggers come with reponsibility you know so better to keep your hands open and seek the alms you are used to.
    More importantly, your numeracy or lack of it, confirms the level of your debate!

  • malik says:

    When I talk of Pakistan – Punjab, Sindh, NWFP, Baluchistan are included in that – isnt it
    If you will strike any part of Pak you will strike the whole Pak
    Lets see what will happen next –
    Unfortunately US President might be very arugent but he do not know that America is recently thrown out of Iraq, they are loosing the war in Afghanistan, Iran is making nukes against them – tht all was such an insult by itself to someone who claims to be super power – than you must remember Vitenam how humiliating that defeat was. Do you think from the people you have lost will leave you – are ever loosers are chooser

  • Ali says:

    T Ruth :
    “Oh we get your point! And by dropping some critical zeros in your numbers above, one hopes you don’t wipe out 90% of your population”
    dont forget most of pastuns, baloch, sindis, muhajir, and kashmiris hate the punjabi rule. even the southern punjabis r agiant the north punjabi elite. so the actual number might be even less then @malik has mistakenly written.

  • malik says:

    you wish whatever you want to wish
    (I as a person is not important when it comes to Pakistan)
    but one thing is for sure – we are disengaging ourselves from your war on terror

  • T Ruth says:

    Ali,
    Shukriya!
    Freudians would examine more than one explanation for that slip!

  • Raven says:

    The best way to move forward for Pakistan would be to declare that Taliban, LeT, JeM, etc. as part of the Army and hence any attack on any of the terror network is attack on Pakistan. That will make it clear…
    By the way, make Haqqani and Mesud as generals.

  • Mark says:

    To Malik And Others,
    First to others, lets not insult Malik, he gives a viewpoint different to ours. I agree we should robustly defend ourselves though.
    To Malik, you are invited to post here. You bring up points that I don’t agree with but we are trying to do the right thing over there and it is good to take into account others views.
    The US sees this as Democracy against a taliban presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan from which the taliban attack the Democratic governments in those two countries as well as train terrorists for attacks against other countries(for example,just read where a Filipino terrorist was killed by a drone in Afghanistan).
    People such as Malik see this as an outside, non-Muslim occupier and invader, the US, with I have to admit not always a great foreign policy(especially in central america-we all have to admit that). They are leery we are trying to change their religion, their way of life, their customs.
    How to we reconcile these two different and valid viewpoints? That is the million dollar question.
    Malik, with all due respect I take exception to almost everything you have said but I respect your right to say it. I do have to say you are completely wrong to say the US is being thrown out of Iraq. This is utter nonsense. We had agreements with the Iraqi government to first leave the cities at a prearranged time and then to leave the country. A country that is now a DEMOCRACY, with representation in the government by Kurds, SHia and Sunni. Through the Democratic process they can settle their differences through negotiation not though violence. Still Iran and other terrorists groups are killing fellow Muslims but I believe Iraq will be a shining example of Islamic Democracy to the Middle East.

  • bobk says:

    Unfortunately US President might be very arugent but he do not know that America is recently thrown out of Iraq, they are loosing the war in Afghanistan, Iran is making nukes against them – tht all was such an insult by itself to someone who claims to be super power – than you must remember Vitenam how humiliating that defeat was. Do you think from the people you have lost will leave you – are ever loosers are chooser
    You need to get out in the world a little bit more!
    Your view is very skewed from the reality of the world outside your mountain hideout!
    Do you have any REAL IDEA of the capabiity of the worlds military powers? None of which has been used even remotely to its fullest extent ir Iraq ot Afgan.
    If we , the US was the nation your wish we were, Iran’s and your nukes would have been gone long ago. Do you not understand it is our desire to not kill and be what you say we are that keeps you alive to repeat such stupidity. If we were what you say we would be using manned aircraft with larger deadlier bombs to go after militants, not peashooter drones.
    Keep on believing your own propaganda, it hurts not only you in the long run but your fellow peoples/tribes/mobs/gangs.
    If Iraq “kicked us out” why do we have 130,000 troops in country yet. I remember folks screaming we lost, we cant win, the war is hopeless in Iraq (mostly US Dems) back a short time ago. Yet we have a negotiated agreement wth iraq to draw down forces as they have grown into their own abilities.
    NOTE the word NEGOTIATE, an occupier TAKES not gives back.
    why is it the whole can play nice together except your groups–AQ,Talban, Iran and sub groups (hamas etc),Somalia, yemen.
    look within sir!

  • Neo says:

    Pakistan isn’t going to get Hakeemullah Mehsud or any of him fighters handed over, at least not directly. The US drone campaign seems to be getting good information from somewhere though.
    The best the Pakistani government can hope for is that the Taliban leaves them alone and goes for other targets. That may temporarily calm things a bit in the west for Pakistan while they deal with the refugee situation. I don’t think the Taliban is anymore in a position to directly take control of Punjab. That opportunity has passed.
    The Talibans next logical move would be to foment a war between Pakistan and India. I think everyone sees another large scale terrorist attack on the horizon. The Taliban knows Pakistan is likely to lose any border clash with India. The government and army of Pakistan would likely be humiliated. Such a loss of face that is exactly what the Taliban and it’s friends want. The Teliban sees itself capitalizing on any weakness from the current Pakistani government.
    If the Taliban has failed to overthrow the Pakistani government directly, than they will try to do so indirectly?

  • jav says:

    you guys are cleary not thinking straight to believe the idea that america will invade pakistan. 1 million man power or 7 million means nothing. The only thing stopping the political and military leaders of america from putting boots on the ground in pakistan is soley due to the nukes. Why do you think america has created a “fast reaction force” (what ever you call it) to intervene when individuals with-in the pakistani military and ISI hand nukes to alqaeda??? Its because alqaeda have blatently stated that they wont think twice and will use them at will via nuclear truck bomb or what ever (thats my guess). So guys….chill out with the US invading PAK. american troops are actually the ones that are stretched at the moment and not to mention the recession and the trillions of debt. America wont be able to sustain the invasion of pakistan and its extremely unlikely that they will be able to buy off generals so they can defect like they did with iraq. Pakistanis are very nationalistic people and they take great pride in their country and its history, believe me, i know from first hand exerience (ive visited pakistan 5 times and most of my generation were born in pakistan, i was born in britain though). All you guys from america should hope your leaders dont give the instruction to invade, because many of you commenting on this page will probably be called up to fight on the front lines, and i know you guys dont want that, i know i wouldnt

  • bard207 says:

    Xavier

    TTP is entirely side effect of Pakistan creation
    (Afg taliban), but not mature enough to accept responsibility.
    BTW, if Afghan version of Islam as practised in Afg
    from 1996-2000 is so good that Pakistan wants to support Afg Taliban, why not impose the same in Pakistan, which is what TTp is fighting for.
    Impose Sharia (Burqas, beard, mandatory prayers,
    whippings, beheading and all that good stuff) in entire Pakistan and TTP will shut up.
    Don’t limit Sharia to Swat. TTP wants to fight until it
    is imposed on entire Pakistan.
    ——————————————————-
    I asked a similar question a few weeks ago and the Pakistani participants in the that discussion thread exited without responding.
    My guess is that since Malik has electricity and Internet access to be able to read & comment here, he probably lives in the Punjab rather than in Balochistan or NWFP or FATA.
    So far he has avoided responding to you and I would be very surprised if he gave you a logical response to the points that you have raised.
    It has to be quite uncomfortable for the Punjabis to admit they really don’t care for the welfare of their fellow Muslims in the Ummah. If the majority of the people living in Balochistan, FATA, NFWP and Afghanistan were Kafirs – Kufirs (Jews, Christians, Hindus etc), then the Punjabi apathy to the plight of those living in the Taliban controlled areas would be more understandable.

  • Bill Roggio says:

    I have had to block a lot of comments on this thread from publishing as people can’t seem to follow the clearly stated policy. No cursing, no abbreviated or substitute character cursing, and no insulting others. Keep it up and I’ll close the thread. State your case in a respectful manner and we’re good to go.
    And if you comment, violate the policy, and then your email isn’t valid, you are not welcome to comment here again. The policy states your email must be valid.
    If I take the time to write an email to kindly explain why your comment has been rejected, and your email doesn’t work, you are wasting my time. I post my contact information for all to see. I ensure your email is not visible to others. At least have the courtesy of providing a valid email.

  • T Ruth says:

    Hi All!
    There is one voice that i suspect is not well represented here–and that is the voice of the AFGHAN PEOPLE.
    It may be worthwhile to read the results of a credible poll made last month in Afghanistan, in case you haven’t already.
    One covered by WashPo entitled “Poll: 7 in 10 Afghans support US forces”
    //www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/11/AR2010011100852.html
    Another, from the same poll, reported by Times of India entitled “71% of Afghans say India playing most positive role in country: Poll” but MORE INTERESTINGLY goes on to show that “In a double whammy for Pakistan, only 2% of the 1,500 Afghans who participated in the poll voted in favour of Pakistan. In fact, the Taliban fared better with 3%.”
    //timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/71-of-Afghans-say-India-playing-most-positive-role-in-country-Poll/articleshow/5482018.cms
    REVEALING! And in my humble opinion provides context to the viewpoints expressed in this thread.

  • dave says:

    Jav says “Pakistanis are very nationalistic people and they take great pride in their country and its history”
    May I ask what history that is?
    As understand, the history taught in schools is just to brainwash the young minds.
    Nationalistic but unable to counter Zia (and military) influence which single handedly destroyed the nascent nation.

  • Render says:

    Malik – “You know about this war tell me one thing isnt it is said again and again that “we are loosing in Afghanistan””

  • malik says:

    let me summarize in one sentence
    US is loosing in Afghanistan and they will keep loosing it – nothing much anyone can do about it.
    The best would be for them to leave and worse would be to keep on the agression path – they do not seems to give up on the policy of aggression
    And their aggression is a trouble for everyone since they do not have the capacity to stand with what they say.
    For example to win in Afghanistan the way they say it they need 1 million troops in army not an addition of 30000 troops

  • Raven says:

    Malik, you said:
    “US is loosing in Afghanistan and they will keep loosing it – nothing much anyone can do about it. ”
    Is this the reason Pakistan decided to get out of this war?
    May be we should request Indians to send couple of hundred thousand to support us. Would that bring Pakistan back to this war? Or they may choose Taliban side as done previously.

  • omar says:

    I think the US leadership has acted as “enablers’ in this unfortunate situation. I think it would have been MUCH much better for the people of Pakistan if the US had been more direct and clear about what it wants and why. For once, the US is actually trying to do something that would BENEFIT the common people of south asia if it could work. Unfortunately, most American politicians are so used to lying to third world countries, they have missed an opportunity where the truth is both in the US interest AND in the interests of the common people of the region. Its a sad situation, but it can still be saved. The hard fact is that Pakistan’s elite actually needs peace with India, peace with Afghanistan and peace with the US and cannot afford to live like an international pariah dependent on whatever the PLA choses to fork over. The whole bluff would fall apart in two days, but thanks to the “moral hazard” (is that the word from the world of economics I am looking for?) of percieved indispensability, the US has encouraged them to raise their stake to suicidal levels…when the bluff is called, they will fall flat on their face and hundreds of millions of ordinary Indians and Pakistanis and Afghanis will suffer for generations…its very sad.

  • malik says:

    When you are loosing you always tries to pass the bug on someone else!
    Such words like I am loosing becuase of you and because this happened, if he would not have done that things like that – a person must have guts to look inside that what wrong I did which put me in trouble and people around me!
    Tell me one thing guys if Pak stop American supplies because it is causing much of trouble there – what do you think?

  • bard207 says:

    Malik,
    You are intentionally avoiding the concerns that Xavier has raised in this discussion thread, but I had expected you do that.
    I am making note of your reluctance to respond here for the enlightenment of others.
    ———————————————————–
    Moving on………….
    let me summarize in one sentence

    US is loosing in Afghanistan and they will keep
    loosing it – nothing much anyone can do about it.

    The best would be for them to leave and worse
    would be to keep on the agression path – they do not seems to give up on the policy of aggression
    And their aggression is a trouble for everyone since
    they do not have the capacity to stand with what they say.
    For example to win in Afghanistan the way they say
    it they need 1 million troops in army not an addition of 30000 troops
    ———————————————————–
    Why should Pakistan be the Guardian for the Afghani people? Why should Pakistan be given the Authority to decide on the form of government and type of life – culture that Afghanistan should have?

  • T Ruth says:

    hello omar,
    i lost you in the latter half of your comment–can you clarify please?
    thanks

  • malik says:

    Ok I ask this question from Bill & Reven,
    What if we cut down american supply line – Its difficult for government to gain support for this further on –
    What I really mean is staying in current position is seems no longer possible.
    (If you ask a common man why to help US – are they helping us in solving Kashmir – Afghanistan is not the headache of Pakistan)
    (Let me tell you one thing if you ever give a thinking 1.5 billion dollar matters – it really does not – Pakistan can save much more amount by remaining out of US war – and Pakistan is one big country its not running on American aid – come on guys – Just keep it in ur pocket and with that if you can solve your problems please do that)

  • omar says:

    T Ruth,
    Here is an attempt at clarification: Moral hazard occurs when a party insulated from risk may behave differently than it would behave if it were fully exposed to the risk.
    The Pakistani army high command had developed a certain worldview (or rather, regional view) that was a recipe for disaster long before 9-11 brought matters to a head. After 9-11, there was a window of opportunity when the non-jihadi leadership of the army (it is my view that the majority of senior officers are not ideologically fully jihadist, but were used by the smaller jihadist core, who took advantage of their stupidity and tunnel vision regarding India, and so on) could have been turned and made to really switch to a different and less disastrous paradigm. But a lot of the conversation with the US since then has allowed them (encouraged them?) to think they hold more cards than they do. It has encouraged them to overestimate their leverage. The fact is, they will still have to do all the things they needed to do in 2001 (dump the jihadists, make peace with India, stop supporting the taliban, basically give up the jihadi paradigm, etc) but its been made more difficult than it should have been, public opinion (see Malik above) has been fed fantasies that will encourage foolish over-reaching, hard decisions have been made harder. It would have been better to be clearer and PUBLICLY clearer about what is going on….sorry if this is obtuse. There is probably some way you can get my email from bill roggio, feel free to send me an email.

  • Render says:

    Malik – “Tell me one thing guys if Pak stop American supplies because it is causing much of trouble there – what do you think?”

  • It is realy foolish on the part of USA to expect Pakistan army to invade the islamic emirate of North Wazirstan which is under protection MUSLIM UMMA. They should study deeply what drove the American major to kill his own fellow soldiers, richard hadley to play double game or the Jordanian to kill his handlers.
    USA is going to pay more for this ignorance.

  • T Ruth says:

    Jav:” Pakistanis are very nationalistic people and they take great pride in their country and its history, believe me,”
    Pakistan is an idea, and unlike your present home, not a true country. It was spun-off from India which has a deeper history.
    As for pride, that resides in the individual provinces and ethnicity. If there were genuine pride at a collective level they would not have allowed themselves to fall to the level they have. That is despite the shared religion of Islam. But religion did not prevent Bangladesh from breaking away.
    So history will repeat itself. The “idea” of Pakistan is failed and exhausted, rather like the idea of the USSR was. Stay with the reality rather than emotional notions.
    So Pakistan will not require a full-on US invasion. Just tactical moves for the natural pieces to fall away.
    Peace will come from the pieces of Pakistan
    And all of Kayani’s horses and all of his men
    Will not be able to put Pakistan together again.

  • malik says:

    @ Render
    1. If US is so much capable of attack on Pakistan – what is blocking them to attack Iran -whoes nuclear aersanals are a major threat
    2. Where you think you will put 10th most powerfull army of the world with stakes of China in protecting its future through Pakistan route to warm waters – what do you think of nuclear aersanals of Pak – if a nigerian can break into your security – you are talking about one of the most effective intelligence
    3. Let me draw a doomsday scenerio for you – if there are 90 nuclear bombs – India for sure will not have any future, Isreal may not be able to see another day, washington, newyork, london and the number goes on ….. meet the fate of Heroshima Japan
    4. Mind your words and tones before you talk to someone who has the capacity to bring an end to this world
    I will put here again US is on a suicidal mission, Pak must not accompany them in this suicide. Their mission in Afghanistan might be about something that atleast I do not know – but is definetly not abt security of people at large

  • omar says:

    This is part of what I mean by the US having acted as an “enabler” for the worst addictions of the Pakistani army. After 9-11, the US (if its war on terror is actually what it is supposed to be) should have been able to see that Pakistan’s official romance with jihadist/salafist groups was based less on any notion of Islamic solidarity and more on a certain anti-Indian mindset that blinded the army leadership to the other implications of jihadism. If that especially paranoid and deluded mindset had been altered (and it could have been, with a little hand holding and a little tough love), then the jihadist insurgency would be an irritant, but nowhere near the problem it has become in Pakistan’s northwest. And Pakistan could have been cooperating in the new Afghan regime rather than keeping its powder dry for the day the infidels leave and the games begin again in earnest. Instead, the US allowed Pakistan to separate its anti-indian narrative from the jihadist narrative by pretending that the worst jihadi atrocities are all actually Indian plots against Pakistan. This may seem like a good idea in the short term (it gets them to fight the terrorists?) but overall its a terrible idea because it keeps the paranoid delusions that led to the army’s jihadist phase firmly in place and simply postpones the day when everything will go back to status quo ante….
    Maybe that IS the CIA’s plan. What do I know. But from afar, it certainly does not look very smart to be encouraging this nonsense in any way….

  • khattak says:

    Render,
    The cheapest option is just dont give Paki Army money & military equipment. It will take longer no longer than six months to dimantle by itself. Pakistan is nothing but a favor of US money & war machines. When India was marching on Pakistan in 1971, President Nixon bluntly warned India to hands of West Pakitsan(present day Pakistan). Indeed US has given too many lives to Pakistan & is still doing it at the expense of smaller & opressed nationlities like Baloch, Pashtun & Sindhis. For example US is paying $75 million per year to FC out of $750 million to fight the war against terror. But Paki Army is using FC to kill Baloch people. Pople like Mr. Malik shall look into mirror they will see the reason of existance of Pakistan & its military. But I guess Malik is speaking for Paki army. Recently Paki Army is not happy with kerry-Lugar bill which is focussing on social development instead of giving money to army to increase its nuclear arsenal.
    US can’t afford to have adhoc approach to Paki army. They need to convert this army into effective police force. Otherwise it may strat dreaming of conqering the world.

  • Zeissa says:

    Malik, I am unaware of your current level of indoctrination by the mainstream media, western humanism and Islam but by the current Rules of Engagement 80,000 troops are needed for a secure victory, while 40,000 would still likely secure victory albeit it would take longer and require more indigenous sources. The US administration went for 30k, which is a bit weak, but good enough.
    Your 1 million figure shows an astounding lack of military intelligence, knowledge and common sense.
    Your figure of 1 million is clearly nothing to you but a big number to wave about.

  • Victor says:

    Malik’s comments are quite interesting.
    For all practical purposes he implies that because Pakistan is a nuclear power it will continue to act as a rogue nation, blackmailing everyone for more money and arms, while turning a blind eye on AQ and other related groups.
    I do not think Pakistan has missiles which can reach New York and London as he alluded to; clearly they will be Jehadi delivered. How they will smuggle in the nukes is an open question? But if a terrorist reported by his father can smuggle a bomb through airport security, then the existing Western systems are unlikely to thwart ISI’s ingenuity.
    Sooner or later some one will have to call Pakistan’s bluff. The problem is that the longer the rest of the world waits, the more nukes they will have, and more diverse delivery vehicles will be in place.
    The other school of thought of course is that the Western powers are not that stupid, and the Pakistani bomb is as real as the Yeti. No one wants to point that out since it will turn the existing strategic picture upside down. There are folks in the West who would like Pakistan to continue to brew to prevent China from getting a secure overland access to the energy supply from the Middle East. The Jehadis have also proven to be useful pawns when it comes to Xanjiang or Chechnya, so getting rid of all may not serve some strategic goals.
    My thoughts do go out to the soldiers braving the cold weather in Afghanistan while they obey the rules of engagement, and let their potential killer get away from right under their gun-sights.

  • Render says:

    Malik – “1. If US is so much capable of attack on Pakistan – what is blocking them to attack Iran -whoes nuclear aersanals are a major threat”

  • Render says:

    Khattak,
    That’s the third and least dramatic option I mentioned and I think the most likely (if not nearly as fun to write as the first and least likely option was). I’m certain our current Commander-in Chief would prefer an embargo over a multi-Brigade punishment raid/March to the Sea. My guess is the bulk of the Pakistani Army would slowly convert back to light truck mounted infantry as all those elderly M-113’s wear out or run out of parts not made in Pakistan (they can only be restored just so many times by Taxila), at least until China can fill the vacuum with cheap knock offs of the BMP. Based on some of the videos I’ve seen here, it appears the Pakistani Army is already doing that very thing.
    Personally at the moment I think we should disassemble the whole mistake, give half of it back to India, the other half to Afghanistan, and call it a day. But blatant hypocrisy and ingratitude tend to color my opinions somewhat.
    DARK SIDE
    OF THE
    MOON,
    R

  • Ali says:

    i think the only reason US and NATO are tolerating the double dealing and backstabbing from PAKS is probably the nukes. if the US and IMF aid was to be stopped , it wont have enough to pay for its employees. the economy will collapse, it would default on debt payments and rioting , civil war to follow. the country will quickly move back into stoneage .

  • T Ruth says:

    Omar,
    Thank you for your response and no it is not at all obtuse, not to me. It may well be so for Malik, but still i hope he has the capacity to see what you’re saying and grasp it. (Rather than be intent on destroying the world!)
    I think he’s an exemplary example of the threat we are facing–confirming Bill’s choice of Threat Matrix as the name of his blog. Smart guy Bill.
    Not so smart malik, lost in his frenzy of contradictory rhetoric and heady nuke-power.
    Sir, i can only observe that these people are backward and they can only be brought into the 21st century kicking and screaming and that is what is happening now. Malik’s performance only confirms this.
    To be clear, they are backward in their understanding of economics, backward in their relationship with the world, backward in their practice of ethics and backward in their wield of power, personal and institutional, internal and external.
    And so they have insured the banyan tree effect, ie nothing grows under it.
    Pakistan suffers therefore from a leadership crisis.
    Well we have to live with what we’ve got, but this is the transition that i see Pakistan is in. And transitions especially those that are forced against the natural inertia (in this case rooted in raw/crude military power) are neither easy, pretty or comfortable. Things have to get worse before they get better. If a charismatic leader were to emerge to tap into and coalesce people power, that would both quicken and soften the transformation. in absence of that its a field of all possibilities from another army rule to balkanization.
    They say you get what you deserve, but i believe that the common man in Pakistan deserves better, certainly much better than the checkered lot that has reigned in Pakistan’s mis-spent youth.
    Has the US been party to spoiling its foster-child? For sure. Enshrined in Secretary Gates recent comment in The Times ” “The way I like to express it is, we’re in this car together, but the Pakistanis are in the driver’s seat and have their foot on the accelerator,”

  • malik says:

    ok you guys can continue with your human killing agends and lets time decide what will be the fate of this world –
    “Let time be the judge” – see you and good bye 🙂

  • malik says:

    Although I had said good bye few things I need to get clear
    1. First I do not have that much time to worry about the war on terror, taliban, al-qaeda etc. I have better things to do else than that – so if all the discussion was about me or the point of view that I presented than I do not have much time to read all that
    2. If you talk about me, than if you havent got my message the end result that I want is security of people at large not only of my own country Pakistan, but also India, even Isreal, US …. if you just try to get the msg from my words is that
    “US actions have resulted into more problems than it has solved, for you people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan might not be important …. but they are important for me ….. since before american attack on these countries these people were living happy and peaceful life”
    “and US continous adoption of policy of aggression will result into so much problems that noone can solve that – what do you think will you let your friend eat something which has poison in it – you ll try to stop him even if he is going to fight with you”
    3. You guys need to respect the freedom of people – you cannot attack any country or do harm to anyone – its against justice – how many countries supported american actions for iraq – and the people who did that should be brought to justice for making life of so many people miserable with the false claim of WMD.
    4. Sir about Taliban, Al-qaeda – the way of thinking that you think is a threat to you than this way of thinking exist for the killing your brother isreal did in Palestine, when your american army strike iraq with false acquistion, when you with open heart support India who for 60 years are killing muslims in kashmir – simple every action has reaction – whatever wrong you did to the world is reacting back now in the form of this reactionary thinking – you take care of problems you caused to the world this way of thinking will die its natural death
    4. We must together deal this sitution by patience and give up on agressions
    I am talking of peace here not war – not any form of war

  • 13times says:

    //www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/another-reset-fail-1
    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told RFE/RL today that Russia has allowed only one flight of lethal U.S. military equipment to transit its airspace en route to Afghanistan, despite a July agreement
    envisioning as many as 12 flights a day.
    Though the U.S. ambassador to Moscow claims that there were actually five flights, with 11 planned, the pact clearly hasn’t lived up to expectations. And with troops currently surging into the Hindu Kush, there’s still no sign that the operational tempo through the northern distribution network has quickened.
    As of September 2009, a full 30 percent of the northern distribution network’s supplies were routed through Georgia.

  • Mirza says:

    Bill, Could you upload this news on your journal and see how your readers respond?
    //english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/01/2010125185642602982.html

  • Zeissa says:

    Good bye murderer. I’m sure you’re happy with the 600 million Hindus you’ve taken out in the last 1,000 years and having the whole Hindu Kush region literally named ‘Hindu Slaughter’.

  • Zeissa says:

    Oh and for the record I’m half-Chinese and I’m horrified at our past alliance with you. Thankfully it is deteriorating somewhat.

  • Zeissa says:

    Anyway, your conspiracy theories are laughable. The west has never had more than a marginal interest in Pakistan and Afghanistan outside of power plays. In fact Afghanistan in particular was ignored for decades.
    The only motive for being there is primarily counterterrorism and counterinsurgency and secondarily for the welfare of the people.

  • Zeissa says:

    At any rate Malik, I’m sure God will judge you.

  • steve m says:

    I think everyone who reads this site can learn a lot from malik. I believe he is a good representation of an average pakistani. I don’t think he can be persuaded to see the light be us. You can simply look at his last comment in the first #4 and see he just believes the lies he has been fed by his government. I only hope that he continues to read from outside sources and eventually he will enlighten himself!

  • Render says:

    Malik – “Sir about Taliban, Al-qaeda – the way of thinking that you think is a threat to you than this way of thinking exist for the killing your brother isreal did in Palestine, when your american army strike iraq with false acquistion, when you with open heart support India who for 60 years are killing muslims in kashmir – simple every action has reaction – whatever wrong you did to the world is reacting back now in the form of this reactionary thinking – you take care of problems you caused to the world this way of thinking will die its natural death”

  • bard207 says:

    steve m

    I think everyone who reads this site can learn a lot
    from malik. I believe he is a good representation of an average pakistani.
    I found Malik’s posts to be useless to me since I have already read similar thoughts on Internet Communities dominated by Pro Pakistan participants.
    Also, there have been Pro Pakistan participants on this web site in the past with similar thoughts and this conversation followed a similar path.
    1. Talk the standard Pro Pakistan Talk
    2. Avoid logical questions that are uncomfortable for them to answer.
    3. Declare Victory and Leave.
    The above is a waste of time because they aren’t breaking any new ground or expanding beyond what has already been written here before.
    ———————————————————–

    I don’t think he can be persuaded to see the light be
    us. You can simply look at his last comment in the first #4 and see he just believes the lies he has been fed by his government. I only hope that he continues to read from outside sources and eventually he will enlighten himself!
    When Pakistan is humbled, then there will be a significant change in the mindset in there. Until something changes Pakistan, that part of the world will continue to be troubled.

  • T Ruth says:

    And you wonder, why did the chicken cross the road?
    (To do another ‘peace deal’, perhaps!)

  • jav says:

    the thing that amuses me the most is the fact that Malik, to me, represents the”moderate” face of pakistan which is probably about 10% of the population. you can only visit pakistan and meet with the everyday pakistani to see the true picture in what they believe in regards to the war on terror, and pressure from US to attack N.Wstan.
    to put an example forth to you…..2 years ago on a trip to pakistan, i got into a lively conversation with an airport security guard (Islamabad) wielding an MP5 and the topic came onto the war on terror and pakistans participation. his words were somewere along the lines of:
    “americans absolutely disgust me, they are killing the innocent all over the world and they call themselves a democracy (blah blah etc), and the most shocking thing for me is that every single pakistani i spoke to during my stay in pakistan had somewhat similar views. i visited islamabad, lahore, cor mari, few places in kashmir and not once did i come across a person who believes america is doing justice in afghanistan/palastine/iraq, blame it on the media or whatever but my major point is the idea that the pakistani army invading N.Wstan could cause a revolution similar to iranians in the 70’s which will, without a doubt, lead to a cascade of frightening events (some of you guys have mentioned some scenarios in your posts that fit quite well).

  • Zeissa says:

    It really is quite laughable to read his opinions on Kashmir. The Hindus have laws that discriminate their own on their side of the border with special rights for Muslims. Other than the occasional anti-muslim riots Hindus are actually being oppressed on both sides of the border.
    As it is, he is a murderer, even if he likes to think of himself as a proponent of peace. His sort of peace is the one where any offensive action taken by his own people cannot be anything but justified.

  • Zeissa says:

    Oh Bard, your words are so beutiful. I do hope the Paki army is forced to invade N. Waziristan. That alone would be fantastic.
    But the truly wonderous thing would be Pakistan collapsing. Then the world would avenge countless murders.

  • jav says:

    zeissa – pakistan collapsing???
    what about the women and children?
    pakistan collapses and crime sours – innocent suffer!

  • bard207 says:

    jav,

    zeissa – pakistan collapsing???


    what about the women and children?

    pakistan collapses and crime sours – innocent suffer!

    ————————————————————
    Innocents are already suffering
    ———————————————————–
    Pakistan volleyball game bomb toll hits 93
    ————————————————————
    Roughly 14 months ago, innocents suffered in the Mumbai attacks.
    Yet, some Leaders in Pakistan think that more education in Islam and the Arab language are needed in the Pakistani education system.
    Senators want Arabic as a compulsory subject
    ———————————————————–

    Tuesday, January 19, 2010

    By our correspondent

    ISLAMABAD: Members of the Upper House on
    Monday demanded of the government to make learning Arabic language and the Holy Quran mandatory and introduce a uniform system of education based on Quran and Sunnah for all institutions, whether in the public or private sector…
    ———————————————————–
    You are expecting the rest of the world to continue having sympathy – empathy for Pakistan even when the Leadership there continues to fail its citizens.
    I can understand that a collapse of Pakistan would be upsetting to you and some others, but what other way is the situation in that part of the world going to finally become solved?
    There are innocents in Afghanistan, India and Pakistan that have and are suffering because of the failures by the Pakistani Leadership (both Civilian & Military).
    Don’t they deserve as much sympathy – empathy as you are wanting to give to those who might suffer in a collapse of Pakistan?
    One possible benefit of a collapse of Pakistan would be the ability to start over since what they are currently doing isn’t helping or working for Pakistan. Yes, there might have to be some guidance from the outside to get things pointed in the right direction, but at least there would be an opportunity to do that which isn’t there under the current situation – setup.
    Unless Pakistan is able to find new Leadership (both Civilian & Military) that is able to take the country in an entirely different direction, the normal expectation would be for things to continue along the same path in that part of the world.
    Unless there is some type of significant collapse (internal fracture or something equally jolting), it is doubtful that Pakistan will be blessed with Leadership (both Civilian & Military) to take the country in the right direction.
    Let me close with a quote attributed to Albert Einstein.
    “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”

  • T Ruth says:

    Jav,
    That is the whole point, the innocent are suffering now in Pak’s Machination.
    I don’t think there’s anyone here American, Brit, Pakistani, Afghani, Indian who doesn’t care about the The Unknown Villager.
    Even malik who is itching for a fight, is twitching for peace (but only in his own little patch–he’s ready to destroy the world). Schizophrenic place to be…and from that flows all the mischief, violence (unbridled and uncontained), suffering. Propagated by the Pak army/ISI terrorists and sponsored affiliates.
    Now you can’t dismember a schizophrenic human being but it can happen to a federated state if it can’t get its own house in order. Everyone was better off with East Pak becming its own country, Bangladesh.
    You might find it interesting to read Dr Farhat Taj, a pashtun herself, for context to the just some of the present suffering
    //www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C01%5C09%5Cstory_9-1-2010_pg3_5
    Pakistan’s ‘collapse’ is probably being prevented by Western/Chinese/others’ aid. It doesn’t need to be an active, invasive dissolution–it would probably happen if left to itself. All the faultlines are there and they even run through Pak’s largest political party, its Army.
    Now as someone with Pakistani roots i’ll be interested in your thoughts on comments expressed by Xavier and the bard–essentially why does pak feel that the taliban is a good thing for the goose, Afghanistan, but not such a great idea for the gander, Pakistan?

  • T Ruth says:

    Bard,
    Nice one there from Einstein!
    Btw i hadn’t read your last post when i wrote mine a few mins ago.
    I also found it helpful to revisit the lexicon for the meaning of schizophrenia
    //www.thefreedictionary.com/schizophrenia
    Take care!

  • T Ruth says:

    Render,
    Malik said in his last post
    “the end result that I want is security of people at large not only of my own country Pakistan, but also India, even Isreal, US …. if you just try to get the msg from my words is that”
    Israel is IS-REAL….. I thought you’d like that.
    Another freudian slip?
    Just in case you hadn’t noticed…

  • Render says:

    I noticed TR, but I figured since he kept forgetting to capitalize the “P” in Pakistan that we were probably not dealing with the sharpest jihadi sympathiser in the knife drawer, at least as far as English is concerned.
    I generally don’t mention typos, (make too many of them myself). Especially when English isn’t their first language.
    I wonder how many people using the nic “malik” are registered over at PakDef?
    BEST
    OF,
    R

  • Abheek says:

    Zeissa- Thanks for taking cudgels on the behalf of Hindus .. As you rightly said Hindus (or for that matter Xtains & Jews) have been endlessly proscuted in a muslim majority area.. be it on Indian side of the border or the other.
    But people like malik look the other way when such facts are put in front. This is a big cause of concern as they are the literate folks from pakistan and if they think in this manner.. what abt the illeterate …

Iraq

Islamic state

Syria

Aqap

Al shabaab

Boko Haram

Isis