Pakistani troops open fire on ISAF helicopters at Afghan border

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Pakistani troops and Coalition helicopters exchanged fire along the Afghan-Pakistani border earlier this morning, resulting in two Pakistani troops wounded. The Pakistani military has “lodged a strong protest” and insists on a high-level meeting.

Initial reports from both sides are in conflict. The clash took place at the Admi Kot Post in the Datta Khel area in North Waziristan, according to the Pakistani military. Pakistan claimed that the Coalition helicopters based in Afghanistan crossed the border, but an unnamed Western military official said the helicopters opened fire from Afghanistan after taking fire from the Pakistani side of the border.

“Two NATO Helicopters violated Pakistan air space today at Admi Kot Post, North Waziristan Agency in the in the early hours of the morning,” the Pakistani military said, in an official statement released at the Inter-Services Public Relations website.

“The troops at the post fired upon the helicopters and, as a result of exchange of fire, two of our soldiers received injuries,” the Pakistani statement continued. “Pakistan Army has lodged a strong protest and demanded a flag meeting.”

Officially, the International Security Assistance Force, the NATO command in Afghanistan, said that the incident is being investigated.

“ISAF is aware of the incident and is assessing it to determine what happened. This effort will be pursued in a cooperative manner using the border coordination center partnership,” Lieutenant Commander Colette, an ISAF spokeswoman, told The Long War Journal.

An anonymous Western military official told Reuters that the helicopters were responding to attacks on a US combat outpost and had opened fire into Pakistan after taking fire twice.

“Our initial reports indicate that two ISAF helicopters were in the area in support of FOB (forward operating base) Tillman, as the FOB had been receiving intermittent direct and indirect fire from across the Pakistani border,” the official told Reuters. “Upon arrival the helicopter received fire from across the border but did not immediately return fire. Upon receiving fire from across the border a second time, the helicopter returned fire.”

The Datta Khel area in North Waziristan is a known haven for al Qaeda, which has also run a command and control center there. Just yesterday, unmanned US Predators carried out an airstrike in Datta Khel, killing 10 “militants” including four “foreigners,” a term used to describe al Qaeda operatives. Datta Khel is administered by Hafiz Gul Bahadar, a Taliban leader who is liked by the Pakistani establishment as he does not attack the state but does strike at ISAF and Afghan forces across the border.

The exchange of fire along the border takes place as US-Pakistan relations are at an all-time low. The Pakistani military and government are furious over the covert US raid that killed al Qaeda emir Osama bin Laden at his home in Abbottabad, far from the tribal agencies. Pakistan has also been up in arms over the US Predator strikes that target Taliban and al Qaeda leaders and operatives in North and South Waziristan, as well as the incident with Raymond Davis, a CIA contractor who killed two Pakistanis in Lahore.

NATO and Pakistani troops have clashed several times over the past several years. A series of three similar incidents in the early fall of 2010 led to the closure of NATO’s supply line through the Khyber Pass by the Pakistani government. At the end of September, US helicopters struck Haqqani Network forces as they carried out attacks in Afghanistan’s Khost province and then fled to their safe havens in Pakistan’s tribal agencies of Kurram and North Waziristan. In one strike, two Pakistani Frontier Corps soldiers were killed.

In protest, the Pakistani government closed the Khyber Pass, one of the two key crossing routes for NATO supplies, for 10 days. During that time, more than 200 NATO fuel tankers and supply trucks and containers were savaged in major attacks against convoys and rest stops in Baluchistan and Khyber-Paktunkwha provinces, as well as just outside the cities of Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

The border crossing was reopened on Oct. 9 after top US generals and officials apologized for the cross-border strikes.

The major attacks on NATO convoys stopped immediately after Pakistan reopened the Khyber Pass. At the time, US officials told The Long War Journal that they believed the Pakistani military either facilitated or turned a blind eye to Taliban attacks on NATO’s convoys, to punish the US for carrying out cross-border raids. The officials also said the Pakistani military wanted to deflect building Western pressure on Pakistan to carry out military operations in the Taliban and al Qaeda havens in North Waziristan. [See LWJ report, Taliban torch 35 more NATO tankers in Pakistan, for more information.]

Bill Roggio is a Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and the Editor of FDD's Long War Journal.

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48 Comments

  • Fred says:

    They know that no matter what they do, we’re in no position to go to war with them. They’re not afraid of us anymore.

  • Paul D says:

    This will only get worse.Trust is at an all time low!
    Pakistan always protect their assets in North or South Waziristan!

  • Max says:

    I wouldn’t want to be “exchanging fire” with any US helicopter, especially one like in the picture. The outcome would not be good.

  • wallbangr says:

    I hate these skirmishes. Both sides need to show restraint, but pot-shots from the pak side of the border cannot go unanswered. One-sided accounts (from unnamed American personnel) state that it wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction and they took fire without responding initially. If you are a FC gun crew and you take a shot at an American bird, you should expect return fire, regardless of where you are.
    I hate to say it, but perhaps it is time this situation came to a head. Let them cut off the resupply routes. It is about time we stopped pussy-footing around and made the paks feel the strain of being cut off themselves. Also a good time to fully develop the alternative resupply routes through other countries. It seems there is much talk of these alternatives but we always go back to being put over a barrel by the paks. The double game has been exposed so many times and the tax-payers of this country are tired of keeping the paks on the American teet. I understand the short-sightedness of the common American in not taking into account the hegemonic factors at play. But in some ways we’ve been beating our heads against the wall for far too long.
    Is pak too big to fail? There are a lot of frightening and unanswered questions. But in the interim, we are being bled slowly by pak double-dealing. I’m inclined to agree with the let’s-just-join-India-crowd, sometimes. Sometimes the prospect of the teetering paki monstrosity collapsing in on itself sometimes seems like a better alternative than the status quo.
    Maybe this blows over with some border closures and pak-backed torching of NATO/ISAF resupply vehicles. But at what point are we going to stop enabling the paks to take advantage of our support only to further their own agenda against Indian influence in Afghanistan?
    Perhaps most offensive to me is the fact that the paks no longer care to even pretend that they are an ally. The outspoken criticism and trash-talking, coupled with acts like this make me feel like someone has gotten a little too big for their own britches.
    With enemies like this, who needs friends?

  • Charu says:

    If you shoot us, you are then the enemy and will get taken out. Capiche? And if you can’t control your borders then we will control it for you.

  • Blackhawk Squadron says:

    Tough talk all you want boys but the Pakistanis know, and continue to prove, that they are beyond our reach. They are, as a previous poster put it, “too big to fail.”
    PFC Blackhawk

  • aanjrez says:

    hooyah tillman! we’ll never forget you.

  • Al says:

    I hope the CIA knows the exact location and security of Pak nukes. All of them. It may come to a massive special ops to get them before terrorists do and use thme on a U.S. city or Israel.
    Pak is a nuclear time-bomb.

  • raven says:

    Wonder if this is purely for local pakistani consumption…. “see we stood up to the US” show. Also, arresting low-level AQ leadership is a show-off too. Expect more of this before Pak Army claims that they have broken the back of Taliban/AQ and secured their border from American incursion. Seems like a series of cover-up move…

  • Q says:

    Maybe its time to start dealing with the Indians and let them begin applying some pressure to the Pakistanis in the form of a massive troop buildup on there border, followed by limited air strikes to neutralize the Pakistani air defenses. We are gonna have to make more incursions into Pakistan and possibly secure there nukes and other high value targets, might as well start prepping the battlefield now.

  • Render says:

    eh.
    We are most certainly are in a position to go to war against Pakistan, if we so choose to do so.
    The USN owns the western Arabian Sea (three carrier battle groups already on station). None of the US Army’s heavy armor divisions are currently committed and as much as one third of the USMC remains available. Very few of the USAF’s bomber assets and only a tiny percentage of its fighter and fighter-bombers have been committed to the Afghan theater.
    Pakistan is unlikely to use its nukes on its own land (assuming they work at all) and using them externally on any other nation means that the entire nation of Pakistan gets turned into a flat glass lined parking lot, with really huge potholes.
    No, it would not be pretty, even without nukes flying around. But it could be done, with only a little more effort then it took to drag Saddam out of his spider hole.
    While uninformed commenters may not be aware of the above facts, rest assured that the Pakistani military is very well aware of the capabilities, range, and striking power of the US military when it’s turned loose.
    ALL ROADS
    LEAD TO
    ISLAMABAD,
    R

  • Ironeater says:

    Geographical clarification is needed. Datta Kheyl and COP Tillman are separated by a very large distance. Tillman is west, south west of Miram Shah and almost falls in Paktika. Datta Khel is north of Miram Shah….
    Is the error in the ISAF or the Pakistani press report?

  • Victor says:

    All this talk of siding with the Indians has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
    The Indians have no reason to fight a nuclear armed Pakistan. They are willing to tolerate a cut or two as long as the battle remains West of their borders.
    The British created Pakistan to foster Western interests in the Great Game. However over the past two decades, the Pakistanis have stopped playing their part while siphoning billions. We nurtured it; we will have to end it.
    One way to do it is for the Afghans to stop recognizing the Durand Line and for the Baloch to declare independence. Let the ISAF take on the Haqqanis in their lair. Drive the ISI/Pakistani Army out of Balochistan with heavy insurgency. That will end our dependency on the Punjabis while liberating the Balochis and the Pashtuns.
    This will undo the historic wrong done to the Pashtun and the Baloch by the British; it will be the morally right thing to do. At the time Pakistan was created the Pashtuns almost did not join it. The Baloch have been fighting an armed battle for six decades since they too were never interested in becoming Pakistani.
    And those who are worried about Punjabi backlash. Here is a brief history lesson: The real Pakistani (Punjabi) Army has not fought and won a real war in its history. And this is true not only of modern Pakistan but the entire history of the Punjabi Muslims. They have always been ruled by some one or the other (Afghans, Persians, Mongols, Turks, Sikhs, British). Through out there history they can not claim a single ruler of repute which came from their stock. Their missiles are named after foreign invaders who ravaged their lands (Ghauri, Abdali were Afghans, Babur was a Mongol, Ghaznavi was Perso-Turk); there is not a single ruler from the Punjabi stock they could name them after! Modern Pakistan with a dominant Punjabi Army lording over the Afghans is a historic aberration.

  • Dolives3 says:

    Right on walbanger. The real enemy is Pakistan. Let’s cut ties, the situation will come to a head wether its now or 10 years from now. We’re prolonging the inevitable by not grabbing them by the throat and slamming their head off the table. The culture in Pakistan is tribal and for the most part, even with a developing economy, remains barbaric and uncivilized. They are the darkness, We are the light. A nation that tells US one thing and turns to the shadows to enable the killing of Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and soldiers should be dealt with swiftly and without mercy. Nuclear arsenal or not. Let’s get it on!

  • sports says:

    Pakistan is a failed State. The Pak military leaders are corrupt and inept and SHOULD NOT be in control of the Country. The outcomes we continue to see displayed by their continous bloviation and behavior reveals their lack of comprehension. The biggest problem that I have is how their incompetence results in the misuse of resources which causes misery and suffering thoughtout the Country. I have no confidence in Pakistan until a strong leader can step forward and NOT get assasinated.

  • Glen says:

    War mongering is bad, accepted. However, in this case you are highly mistaken in providing this analogy, to say the least. If you see the record of Pakistan, it doesn’t fare at all well. The ideology there has proved Pakistan to be ticking time bomb to say the least. There are unimaginably large number of religious dorks who feel no qualms on killing there. Human right activists have been targeted, liberals have been shot dead, sporting teams of other nations have been attacked there, time and again, on regular basis, and these people have found support structures within Pakistan. If we don’t see this now, it may prove to be very late.

  • Kyle says:

    Look, even if the helos violated Pakistani airspace, which is greatly debated, firing on them is as much an act of war, if not even more.
    If the Pakistani soldiers hadn’t been trigger happy they would’ve been fine. Furthermore, if you read the descriptions of the helos actions they missed and falling rubble from the missed shots caused the injuries. Helos don’t miss on accident.

  • Monkey says:

    Render is correct… don’t underestimate the U.S. military. So far, we’ve been playing with kid gloves on. To be sure, Pakistan is a much more challenging enemy than Iraq, but in terms of a conventional war, it can be controlled. Would still expect Pak to ignite a nuclear war with India before its over.
    Thanks to Victor for the astute history lesson, and for putting this in proper perspective. You’ve got exactly the right idea. Hopefully the powers that be will push towards this logical objective.

  • Pakistani says:

    Pakistan will take all measures to protect its borders.
    Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are for its own protection, and not the business of any other country including America or India.
    Foreign troops are not welcome in our country. If you do not want to get hurt, do not cross the Pakistan border. Simple.

  • Trombone says:

    Render,
    Pakistan has a 700,000 strong army. Its civilian population is also one of the the most heavily armed in the world.
    Even though a foreign air force may bomb Pakistani infrastructure, that is hardly enough to win a war. Iraq had to be invaded on the ground.
    The moment foreign boots enter Pakistan’s territory, they will be confronted with the entire Pakistan Armed Forces, together with a million more armed Pakistanis.
    Things will not be so pretty, Pakistan is no Iraq or Afghanistan. Pakistan is no pushover, let it be very clear.

  • Don Vandervelde says:

    Gawdbless the Afghans, the Indians, and their freedom-loving allies. Strike west thru the Pak’s vulnerable center, across the Indus. Free The Baluchs, Karachi and N&S Waziristan. Build a an autobahn to Afghanistan from Karachi for freedom’s forces. Game, set, Match.

  • David Eliezer says:

    @Pakistani —
    What you say is true, however, harboring Osama bin Laden, AND allowing him to continue planning his attacks on us, not to mention the Haqqanis, etc, is an act of war. If you do not want us to come into your country, don’t harbor (and arm, train, and pay) our enemies. Simple. And if foreign troops are not welcome in your country, then kick out Al Qaeda, for real this time.
    @Render —
    The problem with invading Pakistan is what we do once we’ve defeated their army. We can go to the full extent of destroying their armed forces AND capturing their government, but then what? If we leave, they will just erect an even more radical government in its place. If we stay, we will facing another insurgency, with a much more populous country, even more full of the usual religious nuts. I think most people who post on this page would support the enormous effort involved, but not many others in the country.

  • Ben says:

    The thought of invading Pakistan is ludicrous, we have been fighting in Afghanistan for almost 10 years because of our inability to effectively combat an insurgency. What makes anyone think that if we could not be effective fighting an insurgency in Afghanistan we would be any more effective fighting a country that has a population over six times the size and through more readily available access to media has the ability to organize more effectively then Tailban have been able, to coupled with the population being generally more supportive of their government. one of the main reasons we were effective in Afghanistan in the initial invasion was because our special forces were able to empower the local resistance to over throw the Tailban regime. We would not have that kind of overwhelming support in Pakistan and would undoubtably face a massive resistance upon our invasion. Two other points, One: The international community would not support the US in any use of force against Pakistan. Two: Americans are already widely against a war costing over 100 billion dollars a year in Afghanistan, so does anyone really think they would jump on board with war probably costing far more then the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq combined?

  • Blackhawk Squadron says:

    Mujahideen groups all over the world are hoping and praying for the day when the US launches a full scale invasion of Pakistan.
    If our biggest fear is that some of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal falls into enemy hands then the absolute LAST thing we want to do is send Army and Marine divisions into that country. Our boys would quickly destroy the Pak military, police, infrastructure, you name it. I am all but certain that in the absolute pandemonium that would follow in the wake of such an operation that we would lose track of some, maybe even most or all, of Pakistan’s nuke material. This would provide the _perfect_ opportunity for Al Qaeda or whoever to get their mits on nukes and God knows what else.
    We need to be pulling our people out of Iraq and Afghanistan not pushing them into Pakistan. Former Def. Sec. Bob Gates hit it dead on when he said,

  • crankthatskunk says:

    Let me give you Pakistani prospective on the relations between Pakistan and USA.
    USA citizens should understand it first of all whatever the Pakistani Government does with the American officials is a separate issue from its public. In public opinion, USA is getting hits after hits, its popularity, if there was any, is at its lowest. Therefore, there are two sides to these relations.
    On the announced killing of OBL, majority does not believe on American ever changing accounts of the incident. I can also say majority is not worried about OBL, bar a minority, but almost all the people of Pakistan are not happy from USA incursion in to Pakistan.
    Now to the acceleration of the USA military interference in Pakistan, two things to consider, first how Americans can control the population of 5 times the size of Afghanistan, as hostile to USA if not more? Secondly, can USA financially afford it? Not even considering any other issues like Pakistan military strength and its nuclear capabilities.
    What if Pakistan after getting frustrated by the Americans start to mobilise against USA inside Afghanistan? If USA couldn

  • ArneFufkin says:

    Looks like Pak agitprop agents have swarmed LWJ en force today.

  • Charu says:

    The ISI’s operatives are working overtime today. Nobody wants to invade Pakistan, but if Pakistan insists on being a festering boil then it will eventually be lanced, however reluctantly the world is to intervene. At the moment, Pakistan’s Punjabis are single-handedly destabilizing a large region in Asia and are providing state support and shelter to terrorists with global aims. To what end? Isolate the rogue Punjabi army and its nukes, and you could create a chance for peace and economic progress spanning from the Central Asian Republics through Afghanistan and Baluchistan/Sindh.
    Victor is absolutely correct. For all the sabre-rattling by Pakistan’s Punjabis, all that they have accomplished in their sordid history is the genocidal suppression of poorly-armed civilians of another ethnicity; like the Bengalis and the Balochis. This is why they resort to state-sponsored asymmetric warfare (terrorism), which is the resort of the weak and the cowardly.

  • Victor says:

    The concept of Pakistan is a bit weird, so we have to be clear about what we are invading.

    1. The Pakistani state (Punjabi Army/ISI) has a tenuous control over the FATA/KP region beyond 50-60 miles West of the Indus. Their writ does not run there.

    2. Balochistan is truly the wild West. Sparsely populated desert with little in terms of infra-structure.

    There is absolutely no reason for the US to invade Pakistan proper (i.e. Punjab and Sindh).

    What we need to do is to:

    1. Take the battle across the Durand Line. Read them the riot act and ask them to either withdraw their forces. After all the writ of the Pakistani state hardly runs there, so you are not going to be changing anything dramatically except for sending the Punjabis back home.

    2. Support Baloch Independence. Gwadar is a port big enough to support our needs. Recognize an independent Balochistan (or get our other allies in t he region to do so). If the Pakistani Army tries to come, shoot them from the air. Balochistan is a desert and it is going to be a chicken-hunt.

    Our purpose is served, once we have the following:
    1. Freedom to act without the Durand Line limiting our bravest.

    2. A secure port and supply lines from the Arabian Sea

    Let what remains of Pakistan do whatever they please, with the caveat that any mischief on the nuclear front would be dealt firmly. Let them go the Chinese and ask for the Billions to supplant US aid and see how much the Chinese give them and what they demand in return.

    The Punjabi Muslims officers only knows to kick people when they are down (like they did in the East Pakistan massacres). When confronted with a determined foe, their bravado falls apart quickly. BTW I am talking about the elite here (the officer and ruling class) not the masses.

    To achieve this goal we need to build consensus among the Pashtuns, that their interest are better served with their fellow tribe members across the Durand Line compared to being the lackey of the Punjabi Army.

    I for one want to simply shut up all those talking about how our forces could not fight the Taleban for 10 years. Our bravest our constrained to operate under strict rules of engagement while our opponent hides behind the Durand Line and sends in suicide bombers. Give our bravest some Freedom and you will see this Pakistani bravado collapse like a set of dominoes.

    BTW if we need boots to help manage the situation, we should seek the help of the Bangladesh Army. They have a few favors to return.

  • JN says:

    Honestly I find it quite hilarious when people try to act as if Pakistan has a great army. If I were to use sports terms, Pakistan would get “swept” by America. Barring nukes, they would probably even have trouble fighting someone like Mexico.
    I laugh even more when people act as if Pakistan’s civilian population is armed to the teeth. There may be a couple million armed civilians, but one should also remember that the U.S.A has 120 million people fit for military service aside from the active military. The U.S also has everything in place to shift to a wartime economy in an instant. These past ten years of unconventional warfare have made people forget about our true capabilities. Oh well, the jokes on them I guess.

  • crankthatskunk says:

    @Render,
    Dreaming is not a good idea, sensible approach is needed. Look what have you achieved in Afghanistan in 10 years, and why you are planning to leave?
    Ask any competent Defense Analyst, he would tell you, USA couldn’t defeat it nemesis in Afghanistan after spending billions.
    Are you counting Karzai as Afghans? He is famous as “Mayor of Kabul”. He can not get out from his Palace without the support of Americans. For your information the nemesis are Afghans too, and half of their blood relatives lives in Pakistan.
    Even for Paksitani Military don’t underestimate them or overestimate your own forces. When it comes to fighting the numbers of armors is not the only thing that counts, but the will to fight too. You should have learned from the will to fight from the Afghans in last 10 years. They had hand held arms against your mighty armor, but they are still undefeated. Sensible people learn their lessons and not repeat them.
    I am certain Pakistanis were on board in Abbotabad operation, otherwise the story would have been different.

  • villiger says:

    crankthatskunk,
    You betray little understanding of military strategy and warfare. I don’t mean tooling around with your chest out or even beating it into a peacock dance.
    The US has been there for 10 yrs with both hands tied behind her back–Iraq and ROE. You should respect its tenacity despite that. The leaving bit is for US political consumption–they ain’t goin nowhere, except FATA and Baloch are not nowhere, for different reasons. Your weakness. You should understand that.
    Be for real, your country is rotten to the core, which is why you’re in the hell hole that you are. If you want to survive and thrive, why don’t you change?
    Equally you display little understanding of economics–lost $70bn and all that nonsense!
    You want to portray yourself as ‘sensible’–go get an intnl poll of how sensible Pak is perceived as. Why don’t you renounce terror as a state instrument of your foreign policy? You have nukes but you don’t derive your confidence from that? Because your core problem is that your country is mentally sick, neurotic, tied up in knots with your jihadi nonsense–how sensible is that?
    Look over your shoulder and see the progress in China, India….across Asia.
    Seriously, why don’t you guys change?
    I’ll tell you: its not just because of poor mislead guys like you; its taht too. Its because you have lousy leaders. I don’t just mean Zardari, its obvious you’re inthe Sharif camp. I mean the whole shooting lot incl your Army generals–all of them, read my lips, every single one of them a bunch of jerks. Hence your people–and, yes you are one big mass of fast-breeding mislead souls–are lost.
    Thanks for the Pakistani perspective, now chew on this like stones, or swallow it like bitter medicine. Its all up to you, but decide fast.

  • Render says:

    Victor – Very well done. With only a couple of tiny details I find absolutely nothing to disagree with and a great deal to agree with in both of your two previous comments.
    If you are the same Victor from Totten’s blog then perhaps I have misjudged you.
    EVERY
    WHERE,
    R

  • Ben says:

    @ JN
    I don’t know where you got you 128 million number but you are off by only about 60 million. Also Pakistan would never fight the US using conventual warfare after the what the US did to the Iraqi Army in the Gulf War which if I remember correctly Iraq had one of the largest standing in the world at the time. The army would pose little threat to the US armed forces however the the resulting insurgency would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a .

  • Render says:

    I’ll be shocked to the core if these two comments are not the same guy…Mr. Roggio, if the time permits itself for an IP check?
    ==
    Pakistani May 18, 2011 3:36am:
    Pakistani –

  • Spooky says:

    @ Victor –
    The Bangladeshis have favors to return? You do realize Nixon supported Islamabad in its massacres on the East Pakistanis right? Even brought the Enterprise to bomb India because they went in to stop said massacres. If anything the US owes THEM.
    I agree that Pakistan needs to be dismantled. But it won’t happen by invasion. That would actually play into their propaganda machine that everyone is out to get them and thats why they need that ridiculous military.
    Best way to take care of the dissolution would be to help the Balochs clandestinely. We should also help the Pashtuns in their nationalism which, if successful, removes a major portion of the Taliban’s popularity and charm.

  • Render says:

    Crankthatskunk (is that a weed reference?) –

  • sports says:

    @ Pakistan – I don’t care what the Pakistani people think and feel. The Country is a mess and a disaster zone. For all that I care you people can keep killing yourselves. I don’t care anymore.
    @ Render – I’m not convinced the 700K Paki army regulars can shoot straight or are even led by competent people. Look at the mess the Generals have created…they are inept and corrupt.

  • Raven says:

    Spooky:
    Agree. Dismantling Pakistan other ways, as you suggest, is very plausible. I believe Pakistan Army do not want this war either. Pak Army’s (and some others on this forum) desire to hide behind nukes does not add up when they are the hub of global terror. Something has to give… Hopefully it’s quite dismantling. When their own dogs start chasing them like Taliban/QA does, society’s progress is not even on the horizon (when was the last genuine census was conducted?) and they still don’t have an admission of what’s wrong with their attitude, all logic breaks down.
    They are on a life support. We can take the US tube out and put in Chinese tube as Pakistan wants now but when they find out Chinese tube dispenses even smaller drops, Army will come back.

  • Samie says:

    Here is what US could look at doing:
    1> Help create an independent Baluchistan, Sindh, Pashtunistan with generous help with bullets and money. Instead of spending billions in aid to Pakistan and spending in the war, let the bullets and money gets utilized for much more noble cause.
    2> Help create independent nations based on ethnicity in Afghanistan. Let there be a Pashtunistan comprising of sections from across the border. Let them live the way they want.
    3> Share sincere interest in building these new nations, not necessarily a western style democracy.
    3> Hunt Pakistani nukes and destroy nuclear infrastructure completely.
    4> Leave the remaining Pakistan as it is. Surrounded by fast developing nations, it will either rot or build itself into a new nation. The second option the better of two without a doubt.
    5> I am just wondering whether the cost of creating/supporting new nations is more than present cost of involvement in Afghanistan war + aid to Pakistan.

  • SAM says:

    @Render
    What is your ferocious military waiting for then? Bring it on. You NATO forces can’t even survive without Islamabad’s support. Pakistan can also dismantle foreign forces by fully supporting Talibans, as they did to Soviets. You guys harbored Mujahideen for your own purpose to become global power and now you are crying over it, because they turned their guns towards you.
    Pakistan has paid a huge price in so-called war against terror. We stepped into this war just because of you. We risk the lives of our civilian and security personals just because of you. We stepped into this hell just because of you. What is my fault? What is the fault of a common Pakistani? Why are we paying such a huge price?
    You guys are talking about invading Pakistan. Do you even care about what’s going on in our country? What kind of stress and pain we go through daily while feeling insecure in our own country. You just can’t imagine bro. Because you are just passing time on internet chilling out in your air-conditioned room eating hamburger and moving around with your girlfriend freely, while we are here scared to even go to our schools and work places.
    We are a very sensitive nation. So much sensitive that you can’t even imagine. When you’ve to survive on one time food daily, when you go to your work by hanging on the bus with a 10KG bag, when you daily hears gunfire and blasts, you naturally gets the nerves of steel. So you can’t even think about invading a land of 180 million. If you got the potential, you’d have done it long time back.
    So brother, if you want mankind to survive on earth, try to talk about peace here. These forums are made, so that we can find peaceful solutions and not for hateful purposes.
    World has always witnessed that whatever country tries to exercise its power more than it deserve, they get collapsed. UK, once a grand empire reduced into small chunk equivalent to Balochistan. Germany, once emerged as global power later gets divided and shared by US and Soviets. The invincible Soviet Union got hammered by people that doesn’t even knew how to spell Soviet.
    So think about your coming generations also. They have also got every right to live freely like you or I do. Think about it.

  • Victor says:

    Spooky:
    The favors our personal; nothing to do with the US. The Punjabis set out to fix the “gene pool” of the Bengalis in 1971. Many in Bangladesh have not forgotten that.

    There is absolutely no doubt that Pakistan was our pet dog which has now gone rabid. During 1971, US Diplomats were appalled at what was happening but Nixon et. al. needed to keep the country intact. In spite of the 7th Fleet sailing into the region, the US did not directly intervene though we seem to have encouraged the Chinese to jump in (they did not). Our role was primarily to ensure that West Pakistan remains intact.

    The advantage of Bangladesh is that they are S. Asian Muslims who know the Pakistanis VERY WELL. Any money sent to them will be used to grow the country now that they are cleansing the society of Islamist influences. And they are going to be a lot more acceptable to the Pakistani masses than Indian or Afghan boots.

    Of course the role I envision is a Peace-Keeper mode not a spear-head. Bangladesh has a vested interest in fixing the S.Asia region and bringing in stability. If the Islamists continue to thrive in Pakistan, sooner or later their presence will be felt in Bangladesh also (something they have been working hard to cut)

    Render: I am not the other person you referred to.

    In the truly big picture what matters is:

    -> Whether China will stop playing spoiler of the West now that they are #2 and start acting in a more responsible manner.

    -> If the Shia bomb can be delayed to assuage the fears of the Sunnis while we fix Pakistan. This too requires Chinese and Russian cooperation.

    Quite frankly after the events of the last ten years, I have absolutely no doubt that having a nuclear capable Pakistan is completely against the interest of humanity. They do not need to lose working nukes. A dirty bomb will be enough to make big cities unlivable and turn the global economic order upside down.

    They see themselves as the spear-head of the Islamic world, with nothing to lose. They live on protection money from the rest of the world and the harder it becomes to get it, the more reckless they will get.

    Unfortunately they are still many in the old establishment, especially among the British who created Pakistan who still want to cultivate the state. They have spent their entire career propping up Pakistan and the group think is very hard to change.

    It is awesome that we have the LWJ which gives us an ear to the ground. It would be much better if the main stream media did a better job highlighting the challenge we face.

  • Zeissa says:

    SAM, you are suffering because your countrymen have always supported Islam in its pure form of a warrior religion.
    You’re just blaming others for your pain.
    As for who would win in an all-out war, as a half-Chinese half-Norwegian I’d have to bet on America. They aren’t really trying to beat you, just do as little as possible.
    Here in China we still oppress Islam to the full for good reasons…

  • Zeissa says:

    PS. the Pushtuns don’t mind the UAV strikes…

  • villiger says:

    SAM,
    I empathise with the human suffering of ordinary people in Pakistan, the insecurity, both economic and physical.
    But then why have you Pakistanis not spoken out against your Army and the ISI for aiding, harbouring and abetting the Taliban/LeT and other fundamentalists?
    Its a simple question but i don’t expect an answer. This is where we always come unstuck.

  • SAM says:

    @Zeissa,You are mistaken brother. Islam doesn’t allow you to impose war on anyone. But if war has been waged on you forcefully, it gives you right to retaliate with full force and this is what we call Jihad. I think you’d do the same if you were standing in my position.
    Evil or angelic, human nature always need a purpose. Americans have achieved everything yet they ended up being purposeless after all the achievements they made. So they started off with a new purpose by invading Muslim lands. When humans achieved house, food, car then they went for 2 houses, 2 cars, more than better food and the unjustifiable lust continues until God showed HIS wrath upon them. This is not a bet game sunny. This is the game of life and death. Whoever you bet on, we would not let anyone invade our towns and make us slaves again.
    BTW Thanks to your government for supporting us in these difficult time. We are really grateful.
    @villiger, I respect you for the first part you said. For the second one, every country thinks about its own interests. Americans are not here to stay. But those Afghans and their forthcoming generations are here to stay and we simply can’t 2 enemies are two different fronts of out border. Now there is a difference between those who are fighting for their land in Afghanistan and those who are bombing Pakistan cities and towns. These are the games played on big scale bro, you and I can’t even imagine. And there is that popular saying that says “If you want to break a country, simply break the relation between its nation and army”.
    Now just tell me one thing. Why didn’t Americans protests against their Government, Army and CIA. Why don’t they protest against more than 10 Million Iraqis killed. More than 5 Million Afghans killed. In the past when Cubans, Vietnamese, Koreans were killed. Just give me one good reason? So lad, this would lead to a long chained blame game, that I don’t wanna discuss further.

  • villiger says:

    sam, you’re a cheeky little fellow going around calling people sunny and lad at respectable internet sites that you’re probably not accustomed to.
    As expected you didn’t answer my question. Guess i’ll just have to let you carry on with your self-pity on what a Pathetikstan you have made of your country. Do not go around giving lectures to other people and countries until you can sort out your own garbage. Come back when you have then we’ll listen to you. Meantime, it is because of perspectives like yours that one believes you’re past the tipping-point of no return.

Iraq

Islamic state

Syria

Aqap

Al shabaab

Boko Haram

Isis