READER COMMENTS: "US consular employees kill 2 'gunmen,' civilian in Lahore"

Posted by Charu at January 27, 2011 2:14 PM ET:

Good shooting. Hope he isn't Jewish because the Pakistanis are becoming virulently anti-Semitic under the Wahabi influence. Too bad about the pedestrian. I was trying to remember the number of times US consulates in Pakistan have been attacked; wasn't one burnt down by our good friends in Lahore in the 80's?

Posted by JRP at January 27, 2011 2:49 PM ET:

They're going to lay siege to the embassy. Perhaps not as in Tehran back in 1980, but lay siege they will. This poor fellow David is going to be kept on ice by the Pakistanis until they extract concessions from the U.S. for his release. One of those concessions will surely be payments to the families of the gunmen and the pedestrian all three of whom will be portrayed by Pakistani officials as innocents with bright very prosperous futures ahead of them till their lives were cut short by a "typically trigger-happy American, disdainful of the lives of innocent hard-working democratically inclined Pakistani civilians."

Posted by gfgwgc at January 27, 2011 8:01 PM ET:

There seems to be more to this story than what is being reported. According to the latest reports, Pakistan has filed double murder charges against the driver. I sense the charges are to preemptively deflect public anger at this incident. I hope this story will get followed and reported. As I said, there seems to be more to it than meets the eye.

Posted by Mr T at January 27, 2011 8:42 PM ET:

Hmm, whose bullet holes were in the windshield? The American shot through his windshield?

He is charged with carrying an illegal gun in Pakistan? How absurd. That country is full of people carrying illegal guns and bombs who do mass killings and they know who they are but do nothing.

People come to Pakistan from around the world to train on illegal guns and bombs? Are they really that foolish or do they just think everyone else is that foolish?

No mention of guns found at the scene? Did the guys on the motorcycle just pull out a bottle of milk and the guy overreacted?

We know the American was a Consular employee. Who were the other 2 guys and what were they doing?

Posted by Spooky at January 27, 2011 8:45 PM ET:

*sigh*

And none of the news channels are covering this. Not one. This has the potential to spark stuff that need not be sparked.

Posted by RobertM at January 27, 2011 9:20 PM ET:

Raymond David.....two first names.....he is a spook, not a state department ween. he isnt a consulate security guard, especially since his first designation was technical advisor.

They re-called him a security guard to cover for him being armed...select folks get to be armed out of our consulates, especially in high risk regions.

So with that said, this guy should know better than to drive in a shiny white official looking new consulate vehicle that screams "AMERICAN" as it rolls through Lahore.

Everything going on now is ISI vs agency to quickly wrap it all up.

Bet you Raymond will be back in Virginia for debrief within 24 hours.

Posted by MarineCorpsEmbassygoHuard at January 27, 2011 9:52 PM ET:

Nice one RobertM!

Posted by J St Pierre at January 27, 2011 11:51 PM ET:

JRP, you almost make it sound as if by killing 3 people Raymond David actually did them a favour. Thats pretty pathetic on your part I think. I think all the innocent blood that you Americans have shed around the world has tainted your view of whats real and whats b.s. How quickly does everyone believe an American driving around in Lahore with a hand gun, he shoots 2 people and accuses them of trying to rob him, he is also affiliated with the consulate but is not an official? There's way more to this than meets the eye. Were you singing the same praises for Bush when he said theres WMDs in Iraq - sent the army, killed 655000 civilians and found nothing but oil. How much longer are you idiots going to believe everything the government and its cronies feed you ?

Robert, the car he was driving was a white Honda Civic, and it is quite a common car on the streets of Lahore. I love how little you people know about the world around you yet have such strong opinions :)

Posted by shazia at January 27, 2011 11:59 PM ET:

good shooting indeed! what a comment by others, offcourse we pakistanis can be killed no problem, that too in defence, pumping 5 to 6 bullets in each then driving on one way killing the only young bread earner son of a poor mother, wonderfull. Thats what is called human rights! lawfull behavior of educated societies and modern world! But since its in Pakistan so what? I thik this is where the attitudes and perceptions count that too of the west, what feels strange to me is how come human behavior can be so different when one is killed in Pakistan and one in West, what is it that has killed the human feelings for us? what is it that normal human reaction of grief and worry does not come rather good one or welldone for an act that takes life of a pakistani? does that explain why there is a negative feling for west here?

Posted by Mohammed Anwerzada at January 28, 2011 12:09 AM ET:

Its a shame that this incident happened and people got killed and I am sure it must have been in self defense by the consulate employees.
But having said that, it is also being reported that the two gentlemen were drinking and had opened bottle of liquor in the car.
One thing beyond my understanding is what were the two Americans doing in a highly sensitive area of Lahore and why were not they given proper security to begin with.

Posted by Brian at January 28, 2011 3:23 PM ET:

A report that I read (based on a claimed eyewitness) said that the American got out of the car and shot the two men on the bike. It also stated the at the car was bullet-riddled and the the men on the bike had guns.

Therefore, the men on the bikes fired shots at the car before he he got out and shot them dead. Sounds like amateur robbers/jihadi's vs. professional soldier. Unsual result.

I'm sure the Pakistanis would love to make a real stink of this, but the fact that they have already admitted the men on the bikes had guns and that the American's car was bullet-riddled means that they will not get far. The facts out there make it perfectly clear that theis was an attempted armed robbery or attempted abduction. While I do not trust the Pakistani courts to come to the right conclusion - I do trust that America will not let this man rot in a Pakistani prison for defending himself and will not let the same fate befall the consulate workers who accidentally killed someone as they raced to rescue him from a lynch mob.

Pakistan will be given the opportunity to let this quietly go away. If they do not take it, the pressure will be ratcheted up until they cry "uncle".

To the various Pakistanis who comment at this site and who cry over the pressure brought by the US to make them fight Jihadi's and who threaten that our "callousness" to their plight is making them turn against the West I say - turn that around. Your country (and by that I mean both your people and your government) have been exporting jihadi war against the West and your neighbors (Afghan., India). You should be much more worried about the rest of the world turning against Pakistan. Your treatment to date by the West and India has been marked by great restraint. But, that will not always be the case if you do not stop exporting Jihad. This is your fight to fight. Get on with it and stop blaming us for making you face it.

Posted by NotSurprised at January 28, 2011 5:03 PM ET:

The Pakastani commentors, before midnight, what gives? Its being reported that the Americans were being threatened, and Robbery the motive. In America, IF the scenarios were similiar the reaction would be exactly the same. Gunmen/ robbers are locked up as well as the shooter. Some states have self defense laws, some dont. In America the Co sulate worker would be locked up and charged as well. The charges would vary state to state.

Without substantial clear evidence of what actually happened how can anyone outside of unbiased eyewitnesses question anything? With that said and what I read everyday from Pakistan daily's Unbiased witnesses will be hard to come by.

Of course I have a great deal of respect for the Pakistanis that DO exist that are educated, not prejudice and want to exact change in a largely corrupt country. I hope that someday these PAKS can continue to organize and find the roots of the original base in which PAK was formed.

I would also question the sole "breadwinner" of the single mother. Are you related? Either of you? I sympathize with that mother if her son was an honest hard worker, but making the Bread through robbery or kidnappings is another story completely. What if it actually comes out that this was without a doubt a robbery/ kidnapping attempt? Would you feel the same? What if the American was Pakastani? Would it ever make out of the local daily? Probably not. You see the reporting of these incidents are quite different if an American is involved isnt it? This is from someone who has followed PAKS dailys as long as Ive followed the LWJ and the war on terror. These commentors you criticize I've read for years ( ones I recognize ) and are well read on World events involving the war on terror. They really dont need a defense, and thats not my point.

There wouldnt be much difference between this crime up to this point in either country. The facts are fuzzy at best. When evidence is brought in trial, and the American shot indiscreminately without cause then be outraged.

Being that the American is in another country, a typical target of extremists and smart enough to realize he very well could have been mobbed on the spot, set ablaze etc you must think he felt his life was in jeopardy. Right or wrong? Theres a whole lot more people than bullets in that Beretta clip. No foreigner in their right mind is going to shoot people in what could have been a crowded intersection in a country where alot of people really think Americans have some type of conspiracy to control their Nuclear weapons, Etc. Theres a long list of reasons certain groups dont like Americans. I would fear reprisals instantly if I were in that position. Does it make anymore sense that this American was fearful of his life? Makes sense to me, but I'll reserve judgement until some facts are presented.

Posted by shazia at January 28, 2011 11:58 PM ET:

To notsurprised:

No my dear I am not a relative abut i do have feelings and if you read my comments I was not talking about the two älleged dacoits, I was mentioning about the young boy killed by the car while Raymond and the driver were running away from the crime scene and police, while driving on one way traffic route. He was going to his shop and was runover by the car and the driver and the car both which Raymond called on wireless, are being held inside the american counsalte who have till now not handed them to the police yet.

As for had it been an american, my dear american people are as simple, loving and innocent as common people of Pakistan are, its just that we have been hijacked by our corrupt leaders and they have been hijacked by theirs so nothing is different we as citizens of USA and Pakistan both are hostages to few corrupt.

What we need to think rationally is should a person like Raymond be placed on sepecial duty? Do or can America and Pakistan Governments afford this while already fellings of common people are negative for collaboration of both? This is what media says both national and international: raymond who is now openly been called head of blackwater in pakistan is fluent both in urdu and Pashto, has travelled nine times to pakistan, lives inside the consalte, passport does not show any position being held at the counslate, was shoved out of Kyber Phaktoon on the grounds of a person disliked due to his similar activities, some news report that he was the one months ago driving in black mirored car in lahore taking photographs of Cantt area and had a brawl with police and a vehicle from counslate took him away, he shot the bikers on their back and then came out of car and made videos of the dead. Usually carries a brief case full of money with him and is reportedly assigned to hire informants.

Now God knows whether it is true or false but then why is the counslate and the abmbassy so actively running around to get him out? let the courts try him make an assessment and then curtail the damage, this outrage is the result of active meetings of ambassy with foreing office and counslate denying to handoiver the driver and vehicle, try to understand please.

What my point was that using right language and communication is the essence of winning societies, and second selection of reckless people who are trigger friendly on a busy road are actually doing nothing to enhance america's image here. All what the Ambassy had done in years, pouring money for relief and rehabilitation, scholarships and other stuff has actually gone down the drain and what masses see is a hypocratical approach, when madame hillary says human rights and law to be enforced yet being an example of just opposite in public, question is whats the use of Kerry Lugar grant squezed out of american taxpayers pocket which supports fair law enforcement in Pakistan when americans are above the law killing us here? Is this why americans are paying for kerry lugar grant? I ache not only for Pakistanis but for common americans also who are as helpless as Pakistanis are and unable to do anything.

You and I and the whole asia knows very well whats happening in this part of the world, and how media is used in brigning soft revolutions but for God sake with China on one side, Iran on other , Afghanistan already a heache you think USA will be able to apply its futuristic goal oreinted policy in Pakistan if Raymonds roam and kill on road wearing tag of being an american?. Think about it.

Posted by RobertM at January 29, 2011 11:22 AM ET:

"I love how little you people know about the world around you yet have such strong opinions :)"

Looks like from the news today that i was 100% correct with my assessment.

Just sayin.

Posted by Menon SK at January 29, 2011 12:24 PM ET:

By the looks of it, from the circles we operate, the American had good reflexes. It is very difficult to retaliate the way he did, if he did not have constant training. Muscle memory and all that. Secondly this was no kidnap. it was hit n run, type. The boys were taken by surprise, never thought the opposite party had a gun. And Shazia, i know, what Isloo used to look like before American money came in prior soviet invasion. You guys prospered being part of a cold war vendetta. Why cry now? As for the American, he will walk free in a few days.

Posted by ArneFufkin at January 29, 2011 1:10 PM ET:

The Paks sure seem to find it convenient to forget the American treasure and manpower supplied to save their lives and rebuild their cities after the earthquake and flood disasters.

It causes one to say "What's the use?"

Posted by NotSurprised at January 30, 2011 5:44 AM ET:

Shazia, if you would, link the story of the american being Blackwater Head and all the information you claim. I found no such thing. The closest being a PAK laywer trying to keep Raymond in PAK.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011\01\30\story_30-1-2011_pg13_2

Im sorry to say, you did in fact speak of the six bullets pumped into each pakastani as well as the young man rundown. So dont be so quick too change your stance.

I also clearly stated, I would sympathize if the young man rundown was an honest hard worker if that were to be true. There are many who only want to see peace in Pakistan, and I would agree that many are led by the corrupt. Beyond that not much more I can agree with. Its long been known of PAK citizens quick jump from fact to conspiracy. Your own writers speak of it daily. Blackwater/ FBI ? Come on , is that what sells papers? Why buy into the same stories regurgatated monthly? Stand up.

Funny, you singled out probably one of the more nuetral commentors to react too. I pointed out your question why PAK blood not same as American and thought I was more than fair pointing out how such a case would mimick itself here in USA. That also the facts were fuzzy at best, and the American had to be in self defense mode.

The young man rundown. I havnt found much about him. Was he not rushing to the scene? How quickly chaos can errupt in PAK. Am I right? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, as it has been mentioned he wasnt alone. One of two were hit and one succombed to injuries, in one report.

I can see how some are more prejudiced than others on either side, and for some more than others a life is a life, and they are all precious. I was going to hold judgement until the facts became more clear. As should you. Link the conspiracy you stated above, so we can see how some will always think in PAK.

Posted by Six Months in Islamabad at January 30, 2011 10:42 PM ET:

Wink Wink! Not every Westerner in Pakistan is working for Blackwater but most of us carry guns ! lol So my "sweet" Pakistani friends just leave them alone and you'll live another day to complain about them visiting your "wonderful and peaceful" country.
PS: Stop murdering the powerless Pakistani Christian familes!

Posted by Shazia at January 31, 2011 1:56 AM ET:

here it is:
01/28/11
US embassy official Blackwater agent [ = CIA ]
Pakistani media say the US embassy official charged with the murder of two Pakistani citizens [allegedly] is an agent for the notorious security firm, Blackwater. The US official identified by police as Raymond Davis shot dead two men riding on a motorcycle in Lahore on Thursday in what he claimed was "self-defense" during an attempt robbery. A third Pakistani was run over and killed in the incident after being hit by a US consulate vehicle rushing to the scene to the American's aid. The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular official [Blackwater staff cannot be consular officials. The CIA has infiltrated the US embassy/consular system, dominating it completely. -So this thug is a CIA agent.] and says it is carrying out an investigation. Trying to avoid an anti-American reaction, US State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said Thursday that Washington will fully cooperate with Pakistani authorities and will explain about the incident to the Pakistani people. The issue of American diplomats carrying weapons inside Pakistan was a hot-button subject last year among certain politicians and sections of the media purportedly worried about the country's sovereignty. Many Pakistanis regard the United States with suspicion or outright enmity because of its occupation of neighboring Afghanistan.

PressTV: US official to face trial in Pakistan

One Response “Raymond Davis, black water mercenary jailed for killing three pakistanis” ?
January 30, 2011
Could Spies Have Been Involved Somehow? That’s what Jeff Stein at The Washington Post wonders. Stein talks to Fred Burton, a former deputy chief with the U.S. Diplomatic Security Service, who says that the incident in Lahore “looks like an informant meet gone bad more than a car-jacking attempt.” Burton says that Davis displayed “a high degree of firearms discipline and training” and “outstanding situational awareness to recognize the attack unfolding and shoot the other men … Either the consulate employee’s route was compromised by terrorist or criminal surveillance, or it’s feasible he was set up in some sort of double-agent operation, if this wasn’t a criminal motive.”
http://www.pinditube.com/2011/01/who-is-raymond-davis-why-did-he-kill-two-people/

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Posted by steve m at February 9, 2011 4:31 PM ET:

Hey Bill,
Any update on this story?